Be Sure to visit the store to see whats new

Author Topic: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations  (Read 52185 times)

bjornb

  • 1000 Dollar Club
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 67
  • Grouper
    • View Profile
Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« on: December 08, 2014, 12:10:58 AM »
I shot 160 rounds loaded with the XCB bullet today, giving my XCB rifle a good workout. What I was doing was in no way a TEST, in fact I won't be using that word much anymore, since a test implies laying down baselines, using a comparison protocol, a minimum amount of shots, etc. etc.

Rather than getting all complicated I'll be doing some shooting, explaining and observing over the next few months, and I invite you shooters out there to share your comments and critiques here on the board. No "rights" or "wrongs", I'll be trying out a multitude of variables in my quest to make my rifle shoot as well as she is capable of.

When I did my "HV lube test" the other day, Geargnasher commented that I hadn't shot sufficiently large strings for the bore to get conditioned with the lube. I have to admit that he most likely is right, and today I wanted to give this famous lube a fair shake. At the end of the day a hundred rounds lubed with FWFL had gone down the bore, and here are some of the highlights:
First I shot a few mild loads - 13 grains of Unique. After the first group of 6 I went directly into 3 strings loaded with 28 grains of Varget. The first 2 groups, 15 shots each, were filled with 3/4 gr. Dacron, with the third group (10 shots) I used Puff-Lon as a filler. This is a powdery substance that is compressed (by 20%) between powder and bullet base. I could not detect much difference in accuracy between the two methods.

Then I went straight into some High Velocity stuff. The lube held up very well as the target pictures show. I didn't set up my chronograph; I have ordered this contraption and it's being delivered Wednesday:



It should make documentation much easier, since I like to gather data from all my shooting.
The numbers in parenthesis next to the HV groups are MVs chronographed with the identical loads earlier, when the rifle's barrel was 3 1/2" shorter. It should give a good reference.

Here are the targets from several of the strings shot with Felix lube:








At this point I scrubbed the bore thoroughly, and changed over to a lube I hadn't tried before: White Label 2700+, from Lars' Lubes. I had loaded several strings from mild to wild, and to say that I was impressed with this lube would be an understatement. In earlier conversations with Larry Gibson it was mentioned that this lube could be too stiff and possibly leave lube in the grooves upon muzzle exit. Because of the XCB bullet's shallow grooves I decided to give it a go and it appears the lube performs as advertised.

With this lube I also mixed it up and loaded several bullets cast from pure linotype. Those are indicated in the target photos.





All in all I was very pleased with the way both rifle and loads performed. Not pictured are several groups shot with experimental powders, that didn't work out well. These loads bombed with both lubes, so no fault there. Hodgdon Superformance just doesn't shoot well at the velocities we were trying to attain, and more experimenting is needed in this area.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 12:19:22 AM by bjornb »

dtknowles

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Noe Guest
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2014, 01:28:34 AM »
Bjorn

I was also at the range today and shot the XCB bullets you sent me.  Thanks for the bullets and for installing the checks and sizing them for me, I don't have a die for .310 but the results today seem to indicate that is better than .311. Lubed them with MML+soap in the Lyman 450 with the .311 die.  It was colder today and windy but the wind was mostly in my face.  The prime variable beside the diameter and lube was the COAL and neck tension.  For others, the rifle is a 30BR used benchrest for score rifle with a sleeved Rem 600 action.

Attached are 3 pictures of three of the groups.  I forgot to bring home some of the targets.  After a cold range I fired a group without taking a fowling shot so the first shot was out of the group the next 4 went into less than an inch and I only had 5 rounds with that powder charge.  34 grains of BLC2 was giving me 2250 fps and 35 was giving be 2375 fps.  The smallest group was shot with minimal neck tension and long COAL so the bullets pushed back into the case when the bullet contacts the lead.

Tim

Larry Gibson

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Noe Guest
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2014, 02:04:58 AM »
Bjorn, very outstanding results!

Looks to me like you're getting very good accuracy at high velocity.  Be interesting to see how that "contraption" works.

I know lots don't clean their barrels and leave them "conditioned" but I don't.  Might be my Army upbringing but I clean my rifles after every use.  Not criticizing anyone else's methods but over the years I've not had much use for any lube that required more than 2 - 3 shots or 5 shots at max to "condition" the bore.  It's why I detest molly lubes and molly coated bullets.  If I have to shoot 15 - 50+ rounds before the rifle "shoots" I'll move on to a lube that doesn't require that.  Just me.  In the upcoming lube test each lube will get 5 fouling shots to "condition" the bore.  If it hasn't done it by then........

Excellent shooting, so much more to try......what fun!

Larry Gibson 

bjornb

  • 1000 Dollar Club
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 67
  • Grouper
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2014, 02:38:30 AM »
Bjorn

I was also at the range today and shot the XCB bullets you sent me.  Thanks for the bullets and for installing the checks and sizing them for me, I don't have a die for .310 but the results today seem to indicate that is better than .311. Lubed them with MML+soap in the Lyman 450 with the .311 die.  It was colder today and windy but the wind was mostly in my face.  The prime variable beside the diameter and lube was the COAL and neck tension.  For others, the rifle is a 30BR used benchrest for score rifle with a sleeved Rem 600 action.

Attached are 3 pictures of three of the groups.  I forgot to bring home some of the targets.  After a cold range I fired a group without taking a fowling shot so the first shot was out of the group the next 4 went into less than an inch and I only had 5 rounds with that powder charge.  34 grains of BLC2 was giving me 2250 fps and 35 was giving be 2375 fps.  The smallest group was shot with minimal neck tension and long COAL so the bullets pushed back into the case when the bullet contacts the lead.

Tim

Tim,
I'm glad to see that your rifle is shooting well and that the bullets worked out. That BR rifle of yours is sweet. As for the OAL seating, I have found that my rifle also likes seating into the rifling, so with the light neck tension in my cases I just let the bullet push back into the case. It seems to give me very consistent seating.

bjornb

  • 1000 Dollar Club
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 67
  • Grouper
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2014, 02:40:28 AM »
Bjorn, very outstanding results!

Looks to me like you're getting very good accuracy at high velocity.  Be interesting to see how that "contraption" works.

I know lots don't clean their barrels and leave them "conditioned" but I don't.  Might be my Army upbringing but I clean my rifles after every use.  Not criticizing anyone else's methods but over the years I've not had much use for any lube that required more than 2 - 3 shots or 5 shots at max to "condition" the bore.  It's why I detest molly lubes and molly coated bullets.  If I have to shoot 15 - 50+ rounds before the rifle "shoots" I'll move on to a lube that doesn't require that.  Just me.  In the upcoming lube test each lube will get 5 fouling shots to "condition" the bore.  If it hasn't done it by then........

Excellent shooting, so much more to try......what fun!

Larry Gibson

If the MagnetoSpeed V3 is half the instrument they claim it is, it will be worth it. It's on sale at Midway right now so I sprung for it.

dtknowles

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Noe Guest
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2014, 05:47:57 AM »

Tim,
I'm glad to see that your rifle is shooting well and that the bullets worked out. That BR rifle of yours is sweet. As for the OAL seating, I have found that my rifle also likes seating into the rifling, so with the light neck tension in my cases I just let the bullet push back into the case. It seems to give me very consistent seating.

Bjorn

It does seem to work.   Only have one bushing for my neck die for the 30BR and I am finding some variation in my stock of cases.  They are all the same headstamp but not the same neck thickness.  They came with the rifle.

With my 6mm PPC and jacketed bullets that same approach got me pretty good groups fast but in the end, .002 neck tension and just enough off the lands to be sure they were always off the lands was most accurate.

I sort of like the soft neck tension and long COAL as a good starting point if you have brass or dies that get you there easily.

My only NOE mould is a .22 caliber plain base flat nose 45 grain three cavity aluminum.  The first bullets I cast from it were a snug fit in the first lot of fired .22 Hornet brass I grabbed to load.  As cast, finger lubed, small thrown charges of Red Dot and the bullet seated long was grouping under an inch at 50.  It has taken a lot of effort to improve that.

Tim

dromia

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3334
  • Sans Peur
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2014, 10:33:29 AM »
bjornb, I'm interested in how the Magneto speed works for you with cast.

I have been tempted by them but the experiences I had with them using jacketed boolits has not been good.

I emailed Magneto speed about this and the sort of confirmed that reported results with cast was variable, I suspect tht it has something to do with the sensitivity setting. It is adjustable on the chrono itself but perhaps the factory thresholds vary somewhat, doesn't matter for jacketed but does for cast.

bjornb

  • 1000 Dollar Club
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 67
  • Grouper
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2014, 01:33:50 PM »
I'm aware that the unit has not been proven with cast. However, I'm willing to take the chance given the convenience of the MagnetoSpeed. If it bombs completely I could always sell it at a loss and move on. Somebody has to blaze the trail! 8)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 01:36:44 PM by bjornb »

goodsteel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
  • Smithy
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2014, 01:45:09 PM »
Fantastic results BjornB. You're posting things that I have been yearning to see for years.
Really inspirational results!

DR Owl Creek

  • 1000 Dollar Club
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 205
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2014, 04:43:19 PM »
I shot 160 rounds loaded with the XCB bullet today, giving my XCB rifle a good workout. What I was doing was in no way a TEST, in fact I won't be using that word much anymore, since a test implies laying down baselines, using a comparison protocol, a minimum amount of shots, etc. etc.

Rather than getting all complicated I'll be doing some shooting, explaining and observing over the next few months, and I invite you shooters out there to share your comments and critiques here on the board. No "rights" or "wrongs", I'll be trying out a multitude of variables in my quest to make my rifle shoot as well as she is capable of.

When I did my "HV lube test" the other day, Geargnasher commented that I hadn't shot sufficiently large strings for the bore to get conditioned with the lube. I have to admit that he most likely is right, and today I wanted to give this famous lube a fair shake. At the end of the day a hundred rounds lubed with FWFL had gone down the bore, and here are some of the highlights:
First I shot a few mild loads - 13 grains of Unique. After the first group of 6 I went directly into 3 strings loaded with 28 grains of Varget. The first 2 groups, 15 shots each, were filled with 3/4 gr. Dacron, with the third group (10 shots) I used Puff-Lon as a filler. This is a powdery substance that is compressed (by 20%) between powder and bullet base. I could not detect much difference in accuracy between the two methods.

Then I went straight into some High Velocity stuff. The lube held up very well as the target pictures show. I didn't set up my chronograph; I have ordered this contraption and it's being delivered Wednesday:



It should make documentation much easier, since I like to gather data from all my shooting.
The numbers in parenthesis next to the HV groups are MVs chronographed with the identical loads earlier, when the rifle's barrel was 3 1/2" shorter. It should give a good reference.

Here are the targets from several of the strings shot with Felix lube:








At this point I scrubbed the bore thoroughly, and changed over to a lube I hadn't tried before: White Label 2700+, from Lars' Lubes. I had loaded several strings from mild to wild, and to say that I was impressed with this lube would be an understatement. In earlier conversations with Larry Gibson it was mentioned that this lube could be too stiff and possibly leave lube in the grooves upon muzzle exit. Because of the XCB bullet's shallow grooves I decided to give it a go and it appears the lube performs as advertised.

With this lube I also mixed it up and loaded several bullets cast from pure linotype. Those are indicated in the target photos.





All in all I was very pleased with the way both rifle and loads performed. Not pictured are several groups shot with experimental powders, that didn't work out well. These loads bombed with both lubes, so no fault there. Hodgdon Superformance just doesn't shoot well at the velocities we were trying to attain, and more experimenting is needed in this area.

Bjorn,

Outstanding, particularly with the WL 2700+ and Linotype combinations. Please keep posting your results.

I would be interested in hearing what you think about Magnetospeed chrony. I've never liked having anything touch the barrel when shooting. It really seems to effect the size of the groups for me. I also wonder what change in POI you might have when using it compared to when you aren't using it. This might be something else to check into.

Dave


Geargnasher

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • Luber Goober
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2014, 06:48:13 PM »
Now you're getting somewhere, excellent!   Remind us how long you've been attempting HV in rifles?  Just a few months, right?

I'm curious why the 2700+ did so well for you, but so much worse than 2500 for Tim in his ten-twist, maybe it was the large groove of the MP .30-silhouette bullet he used vs. the small grooves of the NOE XCB bullet, or other factors.  Anyway, the 2700+ seems to be working just fine on this bullet, so you can pretty much cross that variable off your list in that particular combination of rifle/load/bullet/alloy.

I too noticed that Magnetospeed was on sale at Midway last night while shopping for some other items, it's been on my wish list for a while but I just can't seem to get off the fence with it.  Maybe I should just pony up and get it and hope it can be tuned for cast.  As far as it affecting groups due to barrel harmonics, it may, but most of the time it doesn't matter unless comparing ballistic stats to group size, which can always be done with a regular chronograph if necessary.  I just want the convenience the Magnetospeed seems to offer for quick trips to the public range, don't we all!

Gear

bjornb

  • 1000 Dollar Club
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 67
  • Grouper
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2014, 11:19:14 PM »
Now you're getting somewhere, excellent!   Remind us how long you've been attempting HV in rifles?  Just a few months, right?

I'm curious why the 2700+ did so well for you, but so much worse than 2500 for Tim in his ten-twist, maybe it was the large groove of the MP .30-silhouette bullet he used vs. the small grooves of the NOE XCB bullet, or other factors.  Anyway, the 2700+ seems to be working just fine on this bullet, so you can pretty much cross that variable off your list in that particular combination of rifle/load/bullet/alloy.

I too noticed that Magnetospeed was on sale at Midway last night while shopping for some other items, it's been on my wish list for a while but I just can't seem to get off the fence with it.  Maybe I should just pony up and get it and hope it can be tuned for cast.  As far as it affecting groups due to barrel harmonics, it may, but most of the time it doesn't matter unless comparing ballistic stats to group size, which can always be done with a regular chronograph if necessary.  I just want the convenience the Magnetospeed seems to offer for quick trips to the public range, don't we all!

Gear

If the stars align and the Magnetospeed arrives Wednesday, I'll be shooting with it on Thursday and I plan to report back here right away what it's all about. That should still give you time to catch the sale if my writeup helps push you in that direction. The sensitivity to cast bullets is naturally the big thing. As far as what Dave says above, the POI will naturally change minutely when hanging something this heavy off the muzzle, but since consistency won't change with the device always being mounted, I don't see it as a detriment. To me it's all about the convenience and the imperviousness to sun/shade conditions.

Yeah I was rather surprised with the performance of the 2700+, but pleasantly so. If it continues to shoot this well it is definitely a variable I won't be changing much.

Thanks for the Unique tip, it shot amazingly well. 

Geargnasher

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • Luber Goober
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2014, 11:53:51 PM »
I think you would have been particularly amazed with the Unique if you'd used the alloy and workup I recommended, I have gotten several rifles to shoot ten shots into holes less than two calibers in diameter, and not benchrest rifles, either.  Takes some tweaking, and Felix lube is probably too stiff for best results though.  I recommended that as a break from all the HV stress and 1-3" groups, sometimes it's nice to tune a load to bughole and build some confidence in your shooting abilities, at least it is for me after months of chasing purple unicorns through the fog.

Gear

sgt.mike

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 101
  • Grumpy Shooter
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2014, 02:33:25 AM »
......I'm curious why the 2700+ did so well for you, but so much worse than 2500 for Tim in his ten-twist, maybe it was the large groove of the MP .30-silhouette bullet he used vs. the small grooves of the NOE XCB bullet, or other factors.  Anyway, the 2700+ seems to be working just fine on this bullet, so you can pretty much cross that variable off your list in that particular combination of rifle/load/bullet/alloy.........

Gear

Probably because Tim was using a factory Remington barrel, versus a Shilen on Bertha.
OR uniformity in the bore???  Coupled with the big lube grooves of the two different bullets.
I was one bench over shooting the same bullet (MP .30-silhouette bullet) using 2700+ and blew out at 2100fps in the ought six a factory Rem 721.
Just a guess and opinion as to why Tim with help from Larry G and Al Nelson's input /skills sought a better mouse trap with the XCB bullet.
Mike
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 02:43:59 AM by sgt.mike »

tomme boy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Noe Guest
    • View Profile
Re: Shooting the 310-165-FN (XCB), some observations
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2014, 05:07:57 AM »
Looks great. We are all learning so keep at it.

 



Castpics and Reloader's Reference