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Group Buys: => Group Buy Discussions => Topic started by: Darksoldier300 on April 30, 2018, 04:05:43 PM

Title: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on April 30, 2018, 04:05:43 PM
I've been casting the HTC .459 500 grain projectile for a 458 socom. I love heavy bullets and got to thinking...I would love a 4 pin set 600 grain(with the flat nose pin installed) hp mould for 458 socom. I think the heavy bullet would be amazing for expansion. I know most moulds have 3 pins included flat, short and long. I would like to see this mould with 4 pins. Flat, short, long and longer for a deep hp cavity. I would like to see a similar profile to the 500 grain bullet. I posted this on the 458 socom Facebook page and have 5 guys interested already. I will urge them to sign up here on this forum so they can get in line. Anyone here interested in this? I have a name picked out as well MOAB (mother of all bullets). Thanks!
1.darksoldier300-no groove
2.bsev81-either
3.magnum mike-no groove
4.hayfieldfarm-no groove
5.bullseye baldee-crimp groove
6.raffica 762-crimp groove
7.bmike-crimp groove
8.cornmastah-no groove
9.jamesbousman-crimp groove
10.intel6-either
11.dreg-prefers groove but good with none.
12.akfshmn-crimp groove will accept no groove
13.andarxx-prefers no groove will accept groove
14.daviscustom-no groove
15.arwildcat- no groove
16.schizm-
17.dreg-no groove
18.
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: bsev81 on April 30, 2018, 04:27:01 PM
I'm interested in seeing where this goes. Might have some time this week to come up with some drawings to get the ideas rolling.

Interested to see what Mike has to say about this as far as how much bullet we can stuff in the case. He was on the ground floor of the 500 grain SP bullet and should have a lot of knowledge as to the limitations for this one.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Magnum Mike on April 30, 2018, 04:30:44 PM
Definitely interested!
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Hayfieldfarm on April 30, 2018, 04:56:09 PM
I’ll buy in to help make this happen.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on April 30, 2018, 04:59:59 PM
Awesome thanks guys! With myself included we need 6 more interested.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Bullseye Baldee on May 01, 2018, 01:05:34 AM
I to will go in to help this along.  But please keep us up to date by Facebook.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 01, 2018, 01:20:07 AM
I most certainly will. Thanks fellas 5 more needed!
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Raffica762 on May 01, 2018, 02:18:57 AM
Im in ..put me down for one ..thank you
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 01, 2018, 02:23:38 AM
Awesome we are only 4 spots away from moving forward!  ;D
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: bsev81 on May 01, 2018, 05:15:21 AM
Tonight I did a little redneck engineering and chopped the body section off of a 500 grain NOE bullet and added it to the existing 354 grain bullet. I cut it a hair too short and wound up with a total weight of 593 grains, but I think this is roughly the dimensions we're looking at to get in the ballpark of 600 grains.

I am not a bullet designer and this is not an NOE drawing, simply my own modification of an existing design drawing. Excuse my MS paint modifications but a visual representation tends to help get ideas flowing. I have not altered the original nose profile of the 354 grain bullet or removed the crimp groove, that can be done by the professionals.

**Paging cornmastah...**

(https://i.imgur.com/X3wNdmC.png)

It looks like we're approaching roughly .875 -.925" inside of the case depending on your seating depth, I seat the 354 grain bullet with the case mouth a good ways short of the crimp groove. Of course this is all subject to change if we modify the nose profile as it could have more room before touching the lands. Compared to the original 500 grain bullet with a body length of .725" this should put about an additional .15 - .2" inside the case.

I have no knowledge of projectile length and the affect it has on stabilization... The only comparison I have is that 220 grain match kings tumble in my 7.5" 300 blackout barrel with 1:8 twist, but the 247 grain NOE bullets shoot just fine. I'm interested to hear input from others with more knowledge on this subject as my 458 barrel is a 10.5" with 1:14 twist.

Let's get this hornets nest stirred up!
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 01, 2018, 10:49:05 AM
Hey thanks for starting our bullet! I would definitely like to remove the Crimp line and maybe narrow the nose up just a tad if possible but I know we are going to be fighting case space. Overall I like what I'm seeing though!
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 01, 2018, 11:40:29 AM
The more I look at that the more I like it. I think I would like to keep the .250 nose. I feel when running the flat nose pin the wide nose will be more effective. At that point all we would need to do is slap the 354 nose on the 500 grain body then add some length to get our desired weight. Again good work man!
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Magnum Mike on May 01, 2018, 12:45:29 PM
Looks great. I also would like to see the crimp groove removed. I think there's sufficient bullet length, for the powders used, to avoid bullet set back.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: bmike on May 01, 2018, 01:03:10 PM
I would be very interested in this. I'm a part of the 45-70 crowd so it would definitely fit the bill for multiple platforms.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 01, 2018, 01:03:18 PM
For sure I think he was just throwing this out there to start the brainstorming. Excited to see this come alive. I can't want to do testing. I want to fill some of the hp cavities with epoxy and see if it aids in expansion.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 01, 2018, 01:03:44 PM
Awesome we are 3 away!
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 01, 2018, 05:21:55 PM
I was excited to see this post!  So a quick thought... If we were to keep the crimp groove, it would allow the 45-70 guys to use this bullet too.  It wouldn't affect 458 socom performance, but wouldn't look as pretty in the socom as it does in the 45-70.  Another option would be to check with Al to see if we can run the group buy with both options, one with a crimp groove, one without.  That way the people who want to use it for the 45-70 can jump onboard too.  We can use the nose length from the 354 gr socom bullet and open the meplat up a little to hit the .250 if that's what we want to do.  I think the 4 options of HP depth would be real fun and a great option.  Also, gas check or no?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 01, 2018, 06:19:51 PM
I talked to Al to ask about having both options of crimp grooves and gas checks...  He worried that having such a long bullet and going in afterwords to remove the crimp groove--it wouldn't look clean enough.  He recommended cutting 2 different tools for crimp grooves and non-crimp groove bullets.  He said gas checks are easy so we can do gas check or non-gas check options on either.  Personally I'd like the crimp groove for the 45-70, but I might just need to order one of each.  ;D

Here is the bullet shortened up a tad and crimp groove removed:

(http://noebulletmoldpix.com/bullet_drawings/workups/HTC459-600-MOAB/Cornmastah_HTC-459-600-MOAB_pb_600_gr_Sketch.Jpg)

(http://noebulletmoldpix.com/bullet_drawings/workups/HTC459-600-MOAB/Cornmastah_HTC-459-600-MOAB_PB_CG_598_gr_Sketch.Jpg)

Thoughts?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 01, 2018, 06:24:26 PM
Awesome glad you guys are digging the idea. I would love to see both options with or without a crimp groove. For me on the 458 I don't see a real need for a gas check but the 45-70 guys might.  So can I add you guys to the list? That would leave us only needing 1 more person and if they don't come along I'll just buy 2 moulds.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 01, 2018, 06:26:06 PM
I talked to Al to ask about having both options of crimp grooves and gas checks...  He worried that having such a long bullet and going in afterwords to remove the crimp groove--it wouldn't look clean enough.  He recommended cutting 2 different tools for crimp grooves and non-crimp groove bullets.  He said gas checks are easy so we can do gas check or non-gas check options on either.  Personally I'd like the crimp groove for the 45-70, but I might just need to order one of each.  ;D

Here is the bullet shortened up a tad and crimp groove removed:

(http://noebulletmoldpix.com/bullet_drawings/workups/HTC459-600-MOAB/Cornmastah_HTC-459-600-MOAB_pb_600_gr_Sketch.Jpg)

Thoughts?
I love the design I think this is going to be a big hit!
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: bsev81 on May 01, 2018, 06:35:53 PM
Dang Mike that looks like a winner right out of the gate, i'm all in as is.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 01, 2018, 06:38:47 PM
I added the crimp groove model to compare.  It is just 2gr lighter.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 01, 2018, 06:49:08 PM
Here is another idea for al that would appeal to even more people, what if they made one with no pins as well. That would keep the cost down for the guys that have trouble swallowing the extra loot.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 01, 2018, 06:59:40 PM
yes, that would also be a possibility.  Here are a few hp options drawn up... The last one is kinda nutty--but the super deep one seems to be popular in the 500 S&W mold.

(http://noebulletmoldpix.com/bullet_drawings/workups/HTC459-600-MOAB/Cornmastah_HTC-459-600-MOAB_pb_600_gr_Sketch.Jpg)

(http://noebulletmoldpix.com/bullet_drawings/workups/HTC459-600-MOAB/Cornmastah_HTC-459-600-MOAB_PB_CG_598_gr_Sketch.Jpg)

(http://noebulletmoldpix.com/bullet_drawings/workups/HTC459-600-MOAB/Cornmastah_HTC459-600-MOAB_PB_CG_hp1_590_gr_Sketch.Jpg)

(http://noebulletmoldpix.com/bullet_drawings/workups/HTC459-600-MOAB/Cornmastah_HTC459-600-MOAB_PB_CG_HP2_583_gr_Sketch.Jpg)

(http://noebulletmoldpix.com/bullet_drawings/workups/HTC459-600-MOAB/Cornmastah_HTC459-600-MOAB_PB_CG_HP3_565_gr_Sketch.Jpg)
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 01, 2018, 07:07:59 PM
 Cornmastah, this is exactly what I wanted, you call it kinda crazy but the deep pin is the one I'm most excited to play with!
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 01, 2018, 07:53:41 PM
I'd assume similar results as this one: https://youtu.be/0KImSdSDUlw

Of course, I haven't played more with velocity and alloy to get a perfect mushroom--but it sure is explosive.

Cornmastah, this is exactly what I wanted, you call it kinda crazy but the deep pin is the one I'm most excited to play with!
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 01, 2018, 08:32:41 PM
Looks like this bullet will be devastating. Can't wait to see these bad boys in lead form! Have you tried pure lead in the 500? Might mushroom instead of explode.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 01, 2018, 09:09:04 PM
I'd need to slow them down a little too.  The hp is just so large lol!
Looks like this bullet will be devastating. Can't wait to see these bad boys in lead form! Have you tried pure lead in the 500? Might mushroom instead of explode.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 01, 2018, 09:25:06 PM
I'd need to slow them down a little too.  The hp is just so large lol!
Looks like this bullet will be devastating. Can't wait to see these bad boys in lead form! Have you tried pure lead in the 500? Might mushroom instead of explode.
Makes sense. I assume these big 600s wont be able to move very fast so that may aid in expansion!
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Jamesbousman on May 02, 2018, 12:02:04 AM
I'm in
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Jamesbousman on May 02, 2018, 12:03:27 AM
I'm definitely interested in one
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 02, 2018, 01:22:55 PM
Tell you guys what. To get this moving to the next step I will put myself down for a second mould and if noone else ends up wanting it I'll pay for the second mould. So that gives us our 10 mould minimum and I believe more will come along as we finish up and get ready to move to production.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 02, 2018, 02:00:07 PM
So it looks like we will have to run the crimp groove version and the non crimp groove version in 2 separate group buys.  Unless everyone is ok with a crimp groove (for the 45-70, not for the 458 socom).  What do you guys think?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: bsev81 on May 02, 2018, 02:07:23 PM
Personally I have no problem with the crimp groove, same as the 354 grain bullet it doesn't hurt anything in the 458 socom. If that's the only one offered then the 45-70 is also covered with just one mold, whereas if it's offered with or without then I will be forced to buy both just because  :D

Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 02, 2018, 02:49:30 PM
I would really like to see it without the groove I just think it looks better. If it comes down to the mould not being made I'll cave and accept the crimp groove.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Intel6 on May 02, 2018, 03:04:12 PM
I am interested in both of these (have both .458 SOCOM & 45-70) but I am wondering something.  Is the nose of this based on the 500 gr. SP with the tip cut off and length added or the 354 HTC with length added to the back of it?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 02, 2018, 03:14:01 PM
 I'll add you to the list. Mike made the design so he could better clarify what he did.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 02, 2018, 03:34:44 PM
The nose is based on the htc459-354-rf nose and the weight added to the base.
I am interested in both of these (have both .458 SOCOM & 45-70) but I am wondering something.  Is the nose of this based on the 500 gr. SP with the tip cut off and length added or the 354 HTC with length added to the back of it?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 02, 2018, 05:00:38 PM
Ok I went to Facebook and posted on my previous post about the crimp groove. I've asked them to come here and state what they prefer so we can get an idea of what way we will have to go. I've updated the list to reflect what has been posted on here so far.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 02, 2018, 05:10:17 PM
Which facebook group is it?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: bsev81 on May 02, 2018, 05:13:53 PM
Just sent you a friend request, it's in the .458 socom group.

I added you to the group but it still needs to be approved by an admin, failed attempt at sneaking you in the back door haha.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Magnum Mike on May 02, 2018, 05:20:57 PM
I prefer no crimp groove.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Hayfieldfarm on May 02, 2018, 05:22:10 PM
No crimp groove.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: dreg on May 02, 2018, 05:30:44 PM
Oof.  I'm in for one, crimp groove preferred but either way.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 02, 2018, 05:35:06 PM
I've blasted just about every 458 socom group and 45-70 group on Facebook lmao!
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 02, 2018, 05:37:46 PM
Sounds like we should do two group buys, one with the crimp grooves (for the 45-70 shooters), one without (for the 458 socom shooters).  I think I will probably want one of each.   ;)
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Raffica762 on May 02, 2018, 05:38:18 PM
Crimp groove ..I have both socom and, 45/70
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: AKFshrmn on May 02, 2018, 05:42:30 PM
I am definitely in for one! I prefer the crimp groove, however I'll still get one if it doesn't have the CG.  I anticipate I will primarily be using this in a 45-70, and occasional use in the SOCOM.  Thanks for putting this together!
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 02, 2018, 05:45:40 PM
No problem glad it's coming together so quick! I'll update the list.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 02, 2018, 06:03:48 PM
I will try to get the two group buy signup posts ready with drawings for both options today if possible so people can sign up for the one(s) they want and make it official and one step closer to happening.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 02, 2018, 06:15:25 PM
Sounds good mike. Looks like 8 are good with no groove a few of that 8 could go either way, pretty sure the other 2 guys that we haven't heard back from are 458 guys and will want no groove.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: andarxx on May 02, 2018, 07:04:50 PM
I’m in, prefer no crimp grove, but would take either.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 02, 2018, 07:19:40 PM
I'll add you in
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 02, 2018, 08:48:13 PM
Because of the length of the bullet, Al is going to have to use the larger mould blocks to build this bullet mould.  The cost will be a little more because of that.  Anybody interested in a shortened version of it?  Like at 500 gr?  Not sure how much case capacity will be left with that long of a bullet shoved into the 458 socom case.  I might try to seat one of the 354's into a socom case and measure the length of where the 600 gr bullet would end up and mark it on the outside of the case so you guys can see roughly how much case capacity is left.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 02, 2018, 09:04:01 PM
If the 600 grain wont work in the socom that was going to be my next thing. A 500 grain hp. I dont mind spending more to make the 600 grain work if it will actually work. How certain are you that we will have enough room left in the case?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 02, 2018, 09:06:23 PM
I'm going to try to seat a 354gr into the case and measure how deep the 600 would sit and mark it on the outside of the case to get a rough estimate of how much case capacity is left.
If the 600 grain wont work in the socom that was going to be my next thing. A 500 grain hp. I dont mind spending more to make the 600 grain work if it will actually work. How certain are you that we will have enough room left in the case?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 02, 2018, 09:10:41 PM
I'm down for the 600 with larger blocks if we think it will work. If not then shave it down to a 500 grain hp and we can restart the process.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Intel6 on May 02, 2018, 10:37:37 PM
I honestly was concerned about case capacity, it is why I asked about the nose specs earlier.  When I coat the 354 HTC in HiTek I can seat it long with the crimp groove out of the case. But when I coat with powder it is thicker and so I have to seat it deeper to the crimp groove to get it to let the AR bolt lock up correctly. No big deal with the 354 HTC since it is short it just protrudes slightly below the shoulder but I am concerned if I have to seat this long bullet at the crimp groove depth (whether it has one or not)  it will stick way into the case. The nose of the 500 SP is shaped different and I can seat that out longer even with powder coat.

The current design seems good for the 45-70 but for the SOCOM it would seem better to start with the 500 SP design and modify as desired since it is able to be seated out further to mag length. And now since we are talking two different moulds and cutting two different tools we don't need to try and make one work for both because we aren't saving anything.   
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 02, 2018, 10:53:55 PM
Another option is to do the one with the crimp groove as designed and then the one without the crimp groove we can start to taper the nose a little.  But if the nose is very bulky, feeding might be more difficult with some of the magazines.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: bsev81 on May 02, 2018, 11:48:36 PM
I started off seating my 354 grain in 458 socom with an OAL of 2.14" which was the longest it would go in my tromix gauge.

Picture of 2.14" OAL just for visual reference
(https://i.imgur.com/ERHcCGQ.jpg?1)

I have started to seat it deeper in my load work ups, so for realistic purposes in MY barrel lets say 2.10" cartridge OAL. Case length of 1.575" leaves roughly .525" of bullet outside of the case which would mean the new 600 grain design would have .905" inside of the case. I have loaded the 500 SP bullet with the case mouth even to the body/nose ridge on the bullet which puts about .725" inside of the case. I have not run into any problems but I have only loaded Accurate 1680 (to 1000 fps in a 10.5" barrel) so far which is very dense and takes up minimal case capacity. I believe the additional .2" of bullet and lowering the charge weight accordingly will have enough room. I don't know how other common 458 socom powders like IMR 4198 will compare as I haven't yet tried any others for subsonic.

If I find some time this evening I will experiment with charging a case and attempting to make the 500 SP bullet contact the powder to see how much room there is. Then proceed to drop the charge a grain at a time and compare the differences. It's not the best way of doing it but should at least give another reference as to whether the 600 grain will even be feasible.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: daviscustom on May 03, 2018, 01:32:05 AM
So if we are using an oversized mold block, what are we looking at for a final cost?.....This is something I am very interested in but the cost is not going to be insignificant.  Do we have a guess as to how soon we would have to be prepared to pay for it?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: bsev81 on May 03, 2018, 01:39:17 AM
Most group buys run at least a month before they go to the mill.

Edited because I think I mistook the large blocks for standard RG block prices and didn't want to misinform.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: daviscustom on May 03, 2018, 01:52:29 AM
So is the $139 (minus the 15%) the total (ballpark) cost or is there any other additions for the pins?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 03, 2018, 01:58:57 AM
I definitely think the 500 grain hp would be awesome as well but I really want the 600 grain to work in the socom. Think how sweet it will sound to say this is the 458 socom 600 grain MOAB! This is beyond my knowledge so I will ask you more knowledgeable folk, how dangerous would compressed loads be with this bullet? From what I understand it's a different ball's game? Curious as to what you find out with your 500 grain seating experiment.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 03, 2018, 02:01:16 AM
The 4 cavity brass 354 hp mould I ordered was about 160. That was with the extras they offer as well. Guessing this one will be 150 160 with pins.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: daviscustom on May 03, 2018, 02:16:57 AM
Most of my 500 grain loads are in the vicinity of 50% filled by Quickload’s estimation, so I can’t imagine that there won't be enough room for me to do what I need to, plus it should make the pressure/burn rate more consistent since it will put me closer to a 100% fill.  One caviat....or maybe two....I am shooting these rounds in a bolt gun,so no need to make an action cycle.....and I generally shoot for about 950 fps so not trying to push the limits at all.

That all being said, I am interested if we stay with the 600 grain size, but it wouldn’t hurt my feelings if we went to a nose design that allowed the bullet to be seated a little further forward just in case.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 03, 2018, 03:00:25 AM
Saying we do the 600 do you want a crimp groove or no.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 03, 2018, 03:56:54 AM
Went home and seated one of the bullets to fit (my) gun with (my) powder coat.  Here is what it looks like if it were extended to be a 600gr bullet.  I measured how much of the bullet is out of the case and how much is inside the case.

(.858 in the case and .572 outside of the case)
(http://noebulletmoldpix.com/pictures/moab_test.jpg)
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 03, 2018, 04:06:55 AM
I see enough space  8) am I wrong?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: bsev81 on May 03, 2018, 04:58:00 AM
Not sure how helpful this will be but here are my findings. I had a piece of scrap brass that I could slide the 500 grain bullet in and out of to gently place it on top of the powder.

X represents my standard charge of Accurate 1680 for 975 - 1000 fps from my 10.5" barrel with the 500 SP bullet.

Charge.         Distance from power to case mouth
X.                   .905"
X - 1 grain     .924"
X - 2 grains   .945"
X - 3 grains.  .961"

I dropped three grains because I'm not sure how much the load for the 600 grain will be reduced from our favorite 500 grain loads to match velocity.

Going off of the info cornmastah provided it seems more dense ball powders should be able to work with few issues. All depending on how far out you can seat the bullet in your rifle. It wouldnt take much adjustment to the nose profile to allow those with current issues to seat this out far enough to work.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: daviscustom on May 03, 2018, 11:05:13 AM
I don’t really care if it has a groove or not I could go either way on that.....I will be seating it wherever I need to
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Intel6 on May 03, 2018, 02:38:42 PM
Went home and seated one of the bullets to fit (my) gun with (my) powder coat.  Here is what it looks like if it were extended to be a 600gr bullet.  I measured how much of the bullet is out of the case and how much is inside the case.

(.858 in the case and .572 outside of the case)
(http://noebulletmoldpix.com/pictures/moab_test.jpg)


Great pic.  You can see what I was thinking, if I had to seat them to the crimp groove then I would be that much deeper in the case.

I honestly don't know how much is too much intrusion in the case?  Is there some sort of standard?   
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: daviscustom on May 03, 2018, 02:46:37 PM
You just need enough room for the powder, my 500 grn loads are in the 10-15 grn ballpark using unique, bullseye, 2400
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: bsev81 on May 03, 2018, 02:48:04 PM
Just out of curiosity, what manufacturer barrel do you have Intel6?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Intel6 on May 03, 2018, 04:16:22 PM
Just out of curiosity, what manufacturer barrel do you have Intel6?

I meant to include that.  I am shooting a Rock River Arms carbine which uses the correct spec reamer and I use Marty's gauge when I reload. I figure I may just have minimum headspace tolerances and just have to make do.  I was having intermittent bolt lockup problems and they went away when I started seating the bullets at the CG. I wasn't sure if it was caused by the thicker PC as that was all I changed?  I was seating them longer when I shot HT coated bullets but my powder coat doesn't look any different than FLT's pic above?  Below is a pic of my loads with HT coated bullets showing the same length everyone else is loading to.

(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/NOE_459_SOCOM.jpg)

Anyway,  I certainly don't want to put a damper on all the excitement of this design.  Just wanted to add my input to make sure we are coming up with the best design possible.

     
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 03, 2018, 04:40:29 PM
ok what about if I create a recessed "front band" of .455 which SHOULD allow all(ish) 458 socom barrels to feed with the same seating depth as mine?  Picture below to show what I'm talking about.

(http://noebulletmoldpix.com/bullet_drawings/workups/HTC459-600-MOAB/Cornmastah_HTC459-600-MOAB-FB_599_gr_Sketch.Jpg)
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: bsev81 on May 03, 2018, 04:42:33 PM
No worries, now is the time to make the nose design more user friendly for those with tight tolerance chambers.

I ran out on my lunch break to find IMR 4198 so I could run my experiment again tonight and compare how much room is in the case. Sportsmans Warehouse is out of stock and PSA seems to be cutting back on their reloading supplies so I cant help there. The only extruded powder I have is Accurate 2015 and it's a "short" kernel powder. Also I have only seen one or two instances of someone trying it in 458 socom so I think it's not going to be of use.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: daviscustom on May 03, 2018, 04:49:01 PM
Anything that allows more flexibility with seating depth is ok in my book.

Is it a cheaper possibility to just get pins for the flat tip and the deep hp?  I don’t care about the rest of the intermediate depth pins.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Intel6 on May 03, 2018, 05:09:38 PM
It looks like that would work well.  I was looking at the 500 SP and the diagram has the main body at 0.459" and the step down @  0.457" so this design is more along the lines of it and I have no issues with seated length with PC on it.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 03, 2018, 05:23:20 PM
Not really, he just includes them all at no additional cost (more work for him, but more options for the user).
Is it a cheaper possibility to just get pins for the flat tip and the deep hp?  I don’t care about the rest of the intermediate depth pins.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: daviscustom on May 03, 2018, 06:10:24 PM
You can put me down for a mold if you haven’t already....when we get a final cost I’ll have to decide if I can swing the 4 cavity.  If I have to pick before then let me know.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 03, 2018, 06:29:27 PM
I don't mind the .455 band. Still looks nice to me.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 03, 2018, 06:33:43 PM
Also, you are using pistol powder with the 500 grain bullet?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: daviscustom on May 04, 2018, 12:14:59 AM
Also, you are using pistol powder with the 500 grain bullet?

Yes....I am using a bolt gun, so all I need is the desired velocity....no worries about cycling an action.....and you get 100% burn.


Quick load is a very valuable tool to help get a starting point with unconventional combinations.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 04, 2018, 01:04:31 AM
Interesting thanks for the reply. Now about the new design. I like it but what if we shaved the band down to say .450? Maybe even more as long as we dont gain to much length. Would that aid us even more for feeding? Then could almost act as a crimp line and be back to only needing one mould. Just a thought what do you guys think?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 04, 2018, 01:27:28 AM
No, the leverguns need the crimp where it was originally.  The 458 socom can have more bullet out of the nose than the leverguns, but the leverguns can have more bullet inside the case.  If the nose is too long, then the leverguns can't left the round and feed. 
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 04, 2018, 01:33:43 AM
Ok I understand. So do we think the last design is the money shot? I think it looks great and will produce a beautiful bullet.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: daviscustom on May 04, 2018, 02:00:11 AM
I've been casting the HTC .459 500 grain projectile for a 458 socom. I love heavy bullets and got to thinking...I would love a 4 pin set 600 grain(with the flat nose pin installed) hp mould for 458 socom. I think the heavy bullet would be amazing for expansion. I know most moulds have 3 pins included flat, short and long. I would like to see this mould with 4 pins. Flat, short, long and longer for a deep hp cavity. I would like to see a similar profile to the 500 grain bullet. I posted this on the 458 socom Facebook page and have 5 guys interested already. I will urge them to sign up here on this forum so they can get in line. Anyone here interested in this? I have a name picked out as well MOAB (mother of all bullets). Thanks!
1.darksoldier300-no groove
2.bsev81-either
3.magnum mike-no groove
4.hayfieldfarm-no groove
5.bullseye baldee-crimp groove
6.raffica 762-crimp groove
7.bmike-
8.cornmastah-no groove
9.jamesbousman-crimp groove
10.intel6-either
11.dreg-prefers groove but good with none.
12.akfshmn-crimp groove will accept no groove
13.andarxx-prefers no groove will accept groove
14.davidsoncustom-either
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.

Thats daviscustom   ;)....not davidson
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 04, 2018, 02:13:59 AM
Fixed sorry haha
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 04, 2018, 04:04:46 PM
what are your guys' thoughts on doing the non crimp groove like my latest drawing, and doing the crimp groove with the original drawing (without the extended .455 band)?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 04, 2018, 05:20:49 PM
I love that idea. Slightly different for those that want both.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Intel6 on May 04, 2018, 05:38:23 PM
what are your guys' thoughts on doing the non crimp groove like my latest drawing, and doing the crimp groove with the original drawing (without the extended .455 band)?

I think that is exactly the way to go,  I will end up getting both.   Since we are going with two different tools we can get exactly what is needed for both specific applications and not have to compromise each of the designs for the other. 
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 04, 2018, 06:00:09 PM
I'm also going to end up getting both.  The extended .455 band will make feeding and chambering a lot easier (for tighter chamber 458 socom guns) on the non crimp groove version, but the crimp groove version with the original drawing will have better neck tension and such for the 45-70 which needs the deeper seating.

what are your guys' thoughts on doing the non crimp groove like my latest drawing, and doing the crimp groove with the original drawing (without the extended .455 band)?

I think that is exactly the way to go,  I will end up getting both.   Since we are going with two different tools we can get exactly what is needed for both specific applications and not have to compromise each of the designs for the other.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: daviscustom on May 05, 2018, 01:12:34 AM
That sounds good to me.  If we are doing both, please put me down for a non-grooved version instead of either.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: ARWildcat on May 05, 2018, 01:37:53 AM
I'd be interested in a non crimp mold. How many cavities? Or is that chosen later? Did we decide how many pins and what type?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 05, 2018, 01:51:20 AM
It will be 4 pin set. Cavities I'm not sure this is my first time doing this. I'll add and update the list.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: bmike on May 05, 2018, 02:00:19 AM
You can mark me down for crimp groove on mine.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: coolpop6307 on May 05, 2018, 02:22:37 AM
Being new to this forum, but interested in the moab. Would it be out of line to ask how this would work as a group buy and what kind of cost are we talking about?
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 05, 2018, 02:32:03 AM
I'm going to base the price off my 4 cavity hp brass mould. 150ish. If you are interested please say so and if you want a crimp groove or a non crimp groove mould. Thanks!
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Schizm on May 05, 2018, 03:22:07 AM
I'm in for 1.

Jason Wallman
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 05, 2018, 03:33:12 AM
As soon as I hear back from Al on the RG (hollow point mould) prices I will create the official group buys.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 05, 2018, 09:07:10 AM
Jason do you want a crimp groove or no.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: dreg on May 05, 2018, 06:13:34 PM
With two different offerings I would have to choose the non-crimp groove mold.  Don't have a 45/70 yet.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 05, 2018, 06:38:18 PM
I'll add you to the list.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: AKFshrmn on May 06, 2018, 11:25:10 PM
I like the idea of 2: .455 band w/o CG; and the CG version. I'm good for one of each. I'm looking for one for the SOCOM, and one for the .45-70.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: Darksoldier300 on May 07, 2018, 02:37:34 AM
When you get a chance mike could you give me a better idea on what a 2 cavity brass will cost. I've been asked alot how much this is going to cost and I'm guessing based on my 4 cavity brass hp mould with our discount at 140-150 but I'd like to give a more accurate number when being asked buy potential customers.
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on May 07, 2018, 05:05:49 PM
Sign up at the link below to get the crimp groove version.

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,2528.0.html

Sign up at the link below to get the non-crimp groove version:

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,2529.0.html
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: AKFshrmn on August 29, 2018, 06:05:16 PM
Sooooo.... Trying to keep this alive. We need a few more folks on the 600gr CG version to make it happen. It would be awesome!  Just sayin'.......
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on August 29, 2018, 06:24:10 PM
That one is going to be made too for sure.  Al is just trying to work it in as well as the regular inventory items.
Sooooo.... Trying to keep this alive. We need a few more folks on the 600gr CG version to make it happen. It would be awesome!  Just sayin'.......
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: AKFshrmn on September 04, 2018, 08:15:17 PM
Great news, thanks,

I picked up the non-crimp-groove version (and I love it), but I was afraid my hopes and dreams for the crimp-groove version were dwindling.

That one is going to be made too for sure.  Al is just trying to work it in as well as the regular inventory items.
Sooooo.... Trying to keep this alive. We need a few more folks on the 600gr CG version to make it happen. It would be awesome!  Just sayin'.......
Title: Re: HTC .459 600 grain PB HP mould.
Post by: cornmastah on September 05, 2018, 03:51:12 PM
yes, this one as well as the shorter 500 gr version (cut with the same tool) should be next.