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bjornborud
There has been so much writing and arguing about bullet lubes and their performance, but not so much evidence as to which lube really works at high velocities. Since HV is one of the main objectives of the XCB cartridge (which the 310-165 bullet was designed for), an effective lube is paramount, and I wanted to see what different lubes would do when tested against each other. Today I loaded up and shot the following lubes: White Label 2500+, Randy Rat’s Tac1, Bullshop’s Lotak, Felix Lube, and 2 versions of the Soap Lube (68.1 and 68.3) from the Lube Quest thread on Cast Boolits. (Disclosure: I am not sponsored by any lube manufacturer. I purchased 2500+ and Lotak from the manufacturers at regular retail price, Tac1 was sent to me from Goodsteel, and the remaining 3 lubes (Felix, 68.1 and 68.3) were generously donated to me by Geargnasher).
I purposely picked a load that would put the lubes to the test. Larry Gibson recently posted about shooting above 2700 fps with 43 grains of LeveRevolution powder, so I picked this exact load for my test, shooting it in my XCB rifle. My shooting regimen was as follows: I cleaned the barrel before each string, with 1 patch Ed’s Red and 1 dry patch. I then shot 2 foulers, same lube as the string to come. Then I shot a 10-shot group. 2 of the lubes gave such large groups that I stopped at 5 shots. I’ll let the pictures speak for themselves:
Is this a conclusive test? I doubt it, but it does give an indication of what a lube is capable of when pushed to its limits. I have no doubt that ALL these lubes perform great under “normal” circumstances, but that’s not what I was looking for, and I think the results were interesting to say the least.
bjornborud-
Replies
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tommeboy
Larry Gibson
Little test? Now hold on. Much speculation has surrounded lube at HV. So far as I know, this is the most comprehensive test posted to date. If you know of a more comprehensive test, I would certainly like to know of it. ……..
Several years back when I started the RPM Threshold threads I conducted a very similar test Using Javelina, RCBS Rifle lube, Carnauba Red, BAC, 2500+, LBT Blue and LBT Blue Soft using the 311466 and the 311291 in my 10″ twist test .308W rifle with 24″ barrel. Velocity was 2409 – 2425 fps. Javelina and 2500+ produced the best accuracy. Javelina is no longer available which is why I use 2500+. So far to 2725 fps 2500+ has produced excellent accuracy expected and is what I will continue testing with.
Larry Gibson
ianharris
Bjorn, thanks for burning some powder for the cause.
Couple things to mention about lube testing. First, yes, at HV lube does matter, I think you just proved that for yourself, something we all have to do to find what really matters and what doesn’t in our own applications. HV performance is one of many reasons why some of us have been spending so much money, time, reloading components, and energy on the quest for a better mousetrap. Also, if you don’t have a “known good” accuracy load to begin with, it’s of course tougher to tell what the lube is doing. Might back off a grain or two and try the more promising lubes again.
Another thing to keep in mind is bore condition. You did well to clean between lubes with Ed’s and burn a couple before shooting for a group, but Felix lube in particular may need more than ten rounds to “settle in”. Bore finish has a lot to do with this, and I realize you’re using a quality, aftermarket barrel, but still there is the seasoning effect to consider. Several of us lube cranks got together a few years ago and decided on a standard for lube testing based on a lot of common experience and observations: Clean bore (clean w/Ed’s and patch dry is good), then shoot one group of ten at a reasonably brisk pace. Let the barrel cool to ambient temperature, fire another ten-shot string and go home. Wait at least a day without touching the bore and do it again. That will give a good idea of what the lube is doing through long strings of fire and cold-starts. With a known-good load and clean barrel start, a different lube will either start to come together, stay the same, or fall apart. By 40 rounds, you will know for sure what’s going on. Observing what order the flyers appear in, if any, can help determine if lube is the cause, or not, for example if shot four, five, or six out of a cold-barrel start is out of the group, it may be that the lube is “purging”. Noting the position and pattern to these cyclic flyers also helps, generally they will print in a consistent location out of the group. Sometimes the flyers are due to other things, and are completely random, but this should be eliminated from the test load before drawing any conclusions from the testing of various lubes. If a lube holds up to those first 40 rounds shot as described, do that same 40-round routine again on the hottest and coldest days you plan to be shooting.
A note on the soap lubes: The SL-68.1 has no Vaseline in it, only heavy mineral oil. I’ve shot it a bunch and so have a couple of others. We’re seeing an occasional flyer here and there, and the though is it has too much oil and not enough middle-viscosity modifier, leading to occasional lube purge. The SL-68.3 is the same as 68.1 but has an additional quantity of Maxima K2 polyolester two-cycle premix oil in it equal to the castor content. I made it specifically for a cold-weather tester and sent him some along with other samples in case they were a dismal failure in sub-zero weather, but so far the ester has proven to be a handicap rather than any help at all, and isn’t needed. Your multiple purge flyers tend to agree with the rest of us, it’s just too slippery. What I didn’t send, and am regretting now, is the last scrap of SL-68 that I had laying on my lubing bench. I’ve been shooting it since early this year and have several hundred rounds downrange with it in three rifles, all over 2300 fps, some bumping 2600. Aside from a slight tendency to antimony wash with softer, low-tin alloys, it has performed very, very well for me at temps up to 105F, and was recently tested to minus 7 with flying colors by Eutectic from the CB forum. The other variations of SL-68 were simply part of the “grand experiment”, and have proven more about what NOT to do to a lube than anything else, we just don’t know for sure what effect a little more or less of an ingredient will have until we put rounds down range.
One advantage of the soft, “dry” soap lubes is that they are pretty much indifferent to lube groove capacity, shape, how many are filled, or the velocity, be it a deep-groove Keith SWC in a .38 SPL or multiple grooves of a .30-caliber Loverin bullet. This is an important factor to consider with a “universal” lube formula, as with some it matters a whole lot how much lube is applied to the bullet.
A lot of the lube testing that I’ve been involved with, particularly with the soap-based lubes, has happened off-screen, and results are often discussed conversationally on the forums rather than in a formal, scientific format. Any results discussed were never intended to “prove” anything to skeptics, so if the findings declared in conversation aren’t adequate proof for some, all I can say is I wasn’t testing for them, only for myself and those to whom it DOES matter and who have the means to verify or contradict my own findings, and you can take the discussions at face value, or test them yourself in a formal fashion as Bjorn is doing and share your findings if you like. The more honest info that’s shared, formal or not, the more data points we have to point out the good and bad of these experimental formulas, and also the commercial ones.
One last note about lube, the “men and boys” really get separated above 2400 fps, and what you thought you knew about lubes can all be thrown out the window at HV, and many people’s “pet lubes” choke badly when their tails are twisted hard or are put through the “standard test” wringer outlined above.
Please keep up the good work, Bjorn, and if you aren’t happy with the way the 2700+ works out after you test it, I’ll put together another batch of SL-68 and send you some, I think you’ll like it, especially since it won’t melt on you in the Florida heat like most anything else available will.
Gear
SwedeNelson
Would very much like to see some more test done with different lubes on the 310 165Gr. FN (XCB) Something off the shelf would be good too.
Some don’t have a degree in chemistry and are not much of a “Betty Crocker”.
This has been a great post and it should help further the success of this bullet.
Thanks to all that have and are contributing to the XCB project.Bullet maker, maker
Al NelsonAl
I have;
LBT Blue
Carnauba Red
Voodoo Red
RCBS Rifle
Javelina
Lyman Super Molly
Lyman Orange Magicavailable to test. I can test with accuracy loads using the 30 XCB bullet at 2600 or 2700 fps out of my Palma rifle. Would shoot 5 foulers from a clean barrel tracking each shot impact and then 10 shots for test group. All would be chronographed of course. I could test others if someone donates them to me?
Larry Gibson
timmalcolm
sgt.mike
Interesting to say the least…
Not to hi jack the thread any further than I have in previous post, but a FYI… I loaded up some NOE 311331 in the 1903A3 for HV testing I started at 40 grs of 4350. As well as I had “somebody” LOL make some Small rifle primed Cases for the Ought six that I am wanting to see if that would have a affect in loads I trying first 47grs of IMR4895 with 155 Sierria’s as Bjornb noticed something with a small primer verses Large Primer loads just attempting to validate. I’ll start the thread’s and post when I shoot them to see where they are at. The rifle is a issue (except the stock) Rifle, as a further side note I really need to put her back in military dress someday would not take much. All that in a different thread though.
Now back to Lubes, Like Al stated Im not a chemist or plan to play one on TV The checking of Commercial lubes vs others I find to be a good benchmark to check against when attempting a load. Really good stuff in my opinion.
Larry, Felix’s son Nick just sent me a small sample of the original big batch of FWFL. Is that something you would like to try?
Sure, why not. I’ve got to cast up a bunch of 30 XCB bullets as my last tests with the 10 and 12″ twists are using up all the 30 XCBs I’ve got cast now. Thus this lube test won’t get done very quickly because of that.
Larry Gibson
What about the stick I sent you? It might work with the extra lube capacity of the XB bullet?
Okay, I’ve got it sitting here and couldn’t remember what it was so didn’t include it. I stuck a paster on it with what it was when you sent it but it didn’t stick to the wax paper wrapper and I couldn’t find it. What is it?
Larry Gibson
daveridenour
tommeboy
Larry Gibson
darrinwright
ianharris
SwedeNelson
timmalcolm
sgt.mike
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