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k7sparky
See the end of this post for Swedes’ preliminary Drawings – HP to follow
This is a continuation of a NOE 510-380-RF (HB) great plains for traditional BP group buy last year.
This is similar but for inlines
BP Hunting season is lurking – I have my Keith mould collection – so back to 50 cal BP inline wish.
I’ve talked with Al about modifying the 510-380-RF Great Plains to .502 diameter which is suitable to modern inlines and he is agreeable to the project. He has limited time so we decided that I would do a makeup to the 510 GP drawing and get comments before he does a production drawing.
Points to ponder / consider and comment on:
Hornady developed the GP for traditional BP with larger bores and deeper groves. Lyman also says their 50 cal Plains “fits most traditional muzzleloaders”We have a very generous deer bag limit so a lot of data can be obtained quickly
We found the 44 Keith style 240g SWC in sabots worked MUCH better than the JHP normally used.
Bad news is somewhere between 500 and 1K sabots shot and your inline barrel sabot fouling build up is a disaster. No amount of scrubbing or solvents will dissolve or remove sabot fouling.With several fouled inlines that patterned instead of grouped there was plenty of experimentation.
We tried all the normal center gun cleaners. Then Toluol, MEK, xlyene, ether, lighter fluid, paint stripper, and more on fired sabots. All we got was nice clean sabots.
The GREAT news is Brownels Shotgun Wad Solvent WORKS both liquid and gel. Swabbed out and left over night the sabot goo came out in globs. Second application got only a little that was left.
Bores were shiny clean and original accuracy was backThe OLD Browning gun cleaner 8oz UPC 023614179412 that says” Removes lead, copper, plastic, carbon, powder fouling” does work although not as well as Brownels. It has been discontinued for years – wish I’d bought more on close out CHEAP.
The 510 GP in pure lead doesn’t fill out well. About 40:1 works well and is still soft enough for BP. Beating a few .510 bullets with .485 groves into a 500 bore with .490 grooves deforms the nose and after about 2 shots you need a hammer to drive it through the fouling and seated on the powder – bad idea in BP.
The LEE REAL works fine and scrapes the fouling out on each reloading. So we use a sharp trailing edge of the bullet as a fouling scraper. Al thought that a sharp band trailing edge about .005 deep would release OK.
Wider, deeper grooves are needed to give the fouling a place to go as it is scraped off.
Hornady GP uses 4 grooves and is 380g. Lyman Plains (508656) take is 3 groove 395g. I like the 3 wider groove idea better because the wider groove gives fouling more area to pack in and displace grease.
I sweaged a number of the 510 -380 GP to 502. This left almost no grease groove. They were chucked up in a small HF lathe and grease grooves turned to about .475 x .055. Lube was the Fryxell take on “Alox” using molygrease. Accuracy was not too bad considering the deformed nose caused by the chuck and I’m sure they nutating about the CM because of the lousy machining. BUT I achieved what I was looking for. They started and rammed easily as long as I cared to keep stuffing them in. Cleanup was a nothing with the normal hot soapy water.
I talked with various competitors at PB vendor booths at the NRA / AM in Louisville and most liked 400g or more for 50 cal inline twist. Thus the weight of about 400g in the HB configuration.
The Keithesque profile of the nose is influenced by the effectiveness of the 44 Keith like240g SWC in the sabots.
There are two different brass ramrod tips proposed both with 10-32 threads. The competition fits the nose and flairs to 0.495 to keep the nose centered. The field tip is flat at 0.35 diameter as that is the ramrod diameters I have. You got a smaller diameter one? Let’s hear about it. The flat tip came from filing 10-32 brass screws flat and screwing them into my ramrods so they do not deform the meplat. I also have a flat on the starter.
Up-Date [ preliminary drawings ]
Will be able to cast the following
502-500-SWC (PB)
502-470-SWC (HB)
502-420-SWC (PB)
502-390-SWC (HB)
502-339-SWC (PB)
502-309-SWC (HB)First draft – changes can still be made!
k7sparky-
Replies
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jasonott
What sort of lube would be best?
Lube for the 502-400?
Probably anything from bear grease to lard. The standard BP fair / snake-oilI have standardized on Glen Fryxell take on the classic ALOX for everything including my front stuffers. Page 54 of the book below 50% beeswax 50% moly grease (got mine at Wally World) by weight. I have added lanolin to thin some for cold weather and have it in a SMALL jar in my possible bag as an emergency finger lube backup. Hot weather it runs off like water.
You can read most of Fryxell’s writing on The Los Angeles Silhouette Club Site
http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htmThe free PDF book at the top of the page that he and Robert Applegate wrote “From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners” should be required reading for anyone RYO.
mattazelton
I would be interested too, but for a different application. I have an H&R single shot Handi-Rifle in 500 S&W that I like to load as a “poor man’s” 50-70. Your design has a wider meplat than the bullet I have been using. Seems like it would be more effective on game.
I looked at Al’s Keith drawings – 44 & 45 had the same meplat diameter so chose that. The set back from nose to driving band is also the wide Keith. The Keith like 44- 240g I had been using before I got my NOE Keith moulds in a sabot is wicked on deer. Unless it hits (and usually shatters) a bone it is a deer punch even on lateral shots. At 400g this should be good for about anything in NA. Keith design is also uncommon accurate so the plan for the comp use.
Hadn’t considered it for 500 S&W – BTW have been lusting after one.
If you need a check, look into Pat Marlins PB checkmakers. Punch beer / soda cans for material, form check and lube size as normal. Have had great results using the PB checks – colorful also
Hadn’t considered it for 500 S&W – BTW have been lusting after one.
If you need a check, look into Pat Marlins PB checkmakers. Punch beer / soda cans for material, form check and lube size as normal. Have had great results using the PB checks – colorful also
The Handi-Rifle in .500 is a great little carbine. I have not loaded mine up to “balls to the wall” factory .500 S&W Magnum levels. As I said before, I prefer to duplicate the old 50-70 type ballistics; which provide plenty of power and are not abusive to the shooter out of the H&R. My current load is a 463 grain scaled down version of the Lyman 515141 at just over 1,250 fps; a deadly accurate bullet, but I’d like a little more meplat before I take it deer hunting. I figure your bullet design should work well in the 1,250-1,350 fps range.
I would hope to not need a PB check on the bullet. I add a small amount of copper Babbitt to all my alloys and that has got me as high as 1,750 fps with a plain based bullet out of a .357 Magnum carbine. I would like to accomplish the same thing with your plain based design, albeit at the lower velocity of 1,250-1,350 fps.
brigettecuneo
Dutch – Did some looking for a H&R Handi-Rifle in 500 S&W they seem RARE.
What are you using for sights?
Weaver V3 1-3x Shotgun scope. Perfect for the ranges a magnum pistol caliber carbine is used for hunting. I have one on a Marlin 1894ss .44 Magnum as well. Both guns with their respective loads are fully deer capable out to 250 yards.
One other scope that has impressed me so far and might be a less expensive alternative is the Bushnell Banner 1-4x32mm. I have one on a .35 Remington bolt gun and have been very impressed with the little scope so far.
Hope this helps,
We were at ROSE International Doll show in Layton, UT so I headed south to Provo for an eyeball with Al.
It’s been about 30 years since I spent time in the Salt Lake City area. LARGER is an under statement – the metroplex didn’t break for the 70 mile drive nor did the HOV lane.
Al is a great host. The new shop is getting mighty crowded with CNC machines. It’s an eat off the floor clean shop. Blocks are dropping out of one CNC full tilt. The new CNC tool grinder is up and producing good looking carbide tools. The shipping area had a PILE headed out the door
I had been thinking about a 3 weight design for the 502-400 HB.
How about 3 different sets of base pins for the RG? 502-400-450-500 HB RGx The nominal weights are for the HB therefore FB will be heavier.
Short pins 500g
Medium pins 450g
Long pins 400g
Al has already done a few multi weight RG base pin moulds and is OK if there is interest.
If there is a HP it would be around 500g. Punch an elk or an engine block end to end!
Dutch is interested for the 500 S&W not BP and I see some HEAVY weights listed for the 500 S&W. Be interesting to see what Al’s program calculates for weight on the 500 HB cast with PB pins
The longer pins will have a ridge on top before the dome to fit in a lower grease groove for sealing.
A bit more care in closing will be necessary to avoid damaging the blocks when using the longer pins.
Not sure my wrist wants a 4 cylinder brass with 2000g of lead in it. ??? May need to rethink and go with RG4 in Al instead
I had been thinking about a 3 weight design for the 502-400 HB.
How about 3 different sets of base pins for the RG? 502-400-450-500 HB RGx The nominal weights are for the HB therefore FB will be heavier.
Short pins 500g
Medium pins 450g
Long pins 400g
Al has already done a few multi weight RG base pin moulds and is OK if there is interest.
If there is a HP it would be around 500g. Punch an elk or an engine block end to end!
Dutch is interested for the 500 S&W not BP and I see some HEAVY weights listed for the 500 S&W. Be interesting to see what Al’s program calculates for weight on the 500 HB cast with PB pins
The longer pins will have a ridge on top before the dome to fit in a lower grease groove for sealing.
A bit more care in closing will be necessary to avoid damaging the blocks when using the longer pins.
Not sure my wrist wants a 4 cylinder brass with 2000g of lead in it. ??? May need to rethink and go with RG4 in Al instead
I’m interested. I’ve been wanting a hollow point for my s and w 500. Sounds promising.
If this is going to morph to include “500 S&W Bad Go Getter”, Dutch / Mountain Man or ? we need some input.
How much can it protrude from the case and still not bind the cylinder / fit a single shot or lever rifle?
Is the SAAMI drawing length a max limit to function from your experience?
Is it OK to crimp over the front band on a 500g to use a Keithesque shape if the front band it too wide and still have room for enough AA#9 / 2400 / etc to be useful?
As drawn I see absolutely no issues chambering this slug in my single shot rifle. I’ll simply just test OAL until I get a length that just closes after a lite crimp is applied.
One issue I do have, and this is my mistake as I misunderstood your intentions with this design, is that I was looking for a plain based bullet weighing around 400 grains. If I go with a plain based mold I’d be looking at well over 500 grains as cast, right?
If this is going to morph to include “500 S&W Bad Go Getter”, Dutch / Mountain Man or ? we need some input.
How much can it protrude from the case and still not bind the cylinder / fit a single shot or lever rifle?
Is the SAAMI drawing length a max limit to function from your experience?
Is it OK to crimp over the front band on a 500g to use a Keithesque shape if the front band it too wide and still have room for enough AA#9 / 2400 / etc to be useful?
off hand I’m not sure about overall length but I do know of several loads using long 700 grain slugs. I believe that is the max overall length you can chamber for a s and w 500 magnum revolver. I was not trying to complicate your ideas, just when I saw 500 magnum and hollow point, a light bulb went off kinda,lol.
I’ve been wanting a hollow point mold but do not have the skills to give specifics Sir. I’m also looking for a plain base mold. I had plans to either powder coat, or I have the pat marlins check maker die if needed. Having a mold with a possible few different hollow point types and or shapes in one mold would be quiet unique I think. Love the idea, and if it would work for our hand cannon, I’m in for trying it out.
Have a good evening gentlemen.
I’m sorr I could not give better details for you.
jasonott
MEmeMEme
mattazelton
brigettecuneo
richardmorony
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