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claudioferrero
I am trying to order an expander plug for a 444 marlin projectile sized to 0.430″
The problem is that the order details mean nothing to me.
eg .436 x .432 Exp. Plug
If I guess that the dimensions are in inches I still have no idea what they refer to.
Diameters, lengths or whatever.
Even on reading forums where people recommend dies for certain bullets – I still do not understand what the numbers mean.
I do not even know if I need to buy a expander given that I have a Hornady die set that has an expander.
I hope someone might help clarify.
claudioferrero
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Replies
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torpedox64
Not five minutes before reading this, I ordered a Lee Universal expander die. With adjustment, you should be able to flare virtually Any case you would want.
I just went the e-bay route. Search Lee Universal Expander, and I think you will like what you see.
I have No Affilliation with anybody. Good luck hope that helps.adamsutherland
Not five minutes before reading this, I ordered a Lee Universal expander die. With adjustment, you should be able to flare virtually Any case you would want.
I have No Affilliation with anybody. Good luck hope that helps.I don’t want unknown neck tension, I want ‘tween 1 1/2 and 2 thou neck tension no more no less a taper cannot give that accuracy and there is the risk of bullet deformation with the taper if the the case neck is too narrow, also the taper can increase the chances of the bullet seating out of square.
Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges, totally different tools that do totally different things.
The “M” die style that NOE sell is superior to a straight taper style.
I am trying to order an expander plug for a 444 marlin projectile sized to 0.430″
The problem is that the order details mean nothing to me.
eg .436 x .432 Exp. Plug
If I guess that the dimensions are in inches I still have no idea what they refer to.
Diameters, lengths or whatever.
Even on reading forums where people recommend dies for certain bullets – I still do not understand what the numbers mean.
I do not even know if I need to buy a expander given that I have a Hornady die set that has an expander.
I hope someone might help clarify.
Yes thankfully the measurements NOE uses are Imperial, no metric nonsense here.
The smaller diameter is the bottom step of the die and the larger diameter is the top step of the die, so with a .436″ x .432″ and a .430″ bullet would give .004″ tension.
“The smaller diameter is the bottom step of the die and the larger diameter is the top step of the die, so with a .436″ x .432″ and a .430″ bullet would give .004″ tension”
So does this mean the die is a cylindrical punch with an initial diameter of 0.432″ and which suddenly steps up at some point to 0.436″?
Does this expand the neck of the cartridge case to 0.436″? Or does it expand most of it to 0.432″
Then the case would spring back by some amount.
I have no idea how a 0.004″ tension comes about.
As far as I understand there would be a gap and therefore no tension.
I suppose I do not understand what the expander die is, or what its objective is, which makes it difficult to order.
It is a two step parallel sided case neck expander.
The first step expands the case neck for retaining the bullet, the bullet being slightly over the case neck expanded diameter this gives the neck tension on the bullet, the second step enlarges the case mouth sufficiently to start the bullet in the case it also forms a two diameter step in the case which helps with bullet alignment.
Obviously the actual amounts of tension and step depth will depend ‘pon your cases and how you set your die up.
If you have a .430″ bullet going into a .426″ diameter case mouth then you will have .004″ of neck tension.
Ross Smith
SwedeNelson
Starting with a sized case, neck or full length it doesn’t matter.
And using a bullets sized .356 and a .357 x .353 Expander plug
the .353″ end will enter the case first then the .357″ step.
This will give you a neck with .003″ tension and a “shelf” with .001
clearance to start the bullet in.
Seat your bullet to the COL that you want.If .003 is to much tension for you change to a .358 x .354 Plug and get .002″.
It is a simple system and has worked for me quite well.Claudio
For your .430″ size bullet you will need a .431 x .427 Expander Plug.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=565_89&products_id=1133&osCsid=a3438ccisn5bo6uajnh8mhl2m1This will give you .001 clearance at the mouth of the case to start the bullet
and .003″ neck tension.I hope this helps
Bullet maker, maker
Al NelsonI agree with Claudio, or at least I’m similarly confused. A .430 bullet inserted to a case mouth of .432 would have .002″ of slop, not tension. Ross
Yes but there are two diameter of the case mouth expansion with the “M” style die, see the illustration. That larger step at the case mouth is only for ease of inserting the bullet and letting it seat square. Press dies are adjustable by screwing them in and out so you only set the dies for the second, larger step sufficient to start the bullet square. The bullet is then seated into the first case diameter which is the area that give you tension not slop. The bullets need to be fully seated to the cartridges correct OAL not left teetering on the case mouth.
We don’t offer a .432 x .436 Expander – don’t know where that came from.
And a .436 x .432 Expander is for a .435 or .434 bullet size.All you have to remember is run a expander plug that the first number is .001 to .002 larger than your bullet size.
Hope this helps
Bullet Maker, maker
Al NelsonThe original post was about a .432x.436 expander plug and a .430 bullet. Not a 426X432 plug. That 430 bullet would only be held in place by the stickyness of the lube.
The OP was an enquiry about the nature of the expander plugs as I read it, the expander plug dimensions as quote were illustrative, not referring to an inventory plug. He said “eg .436 x .432 Exp. Plug” being an example of the description of an expander plug.
AlvinYork
As far as “slop” et al, whenever I’m working with the expander plugs I just remember that the bullet size is “in the middle” of the defined range for that plug. So a .436 x .432 Expander is for a .434 bullet size. This gives you +0.002 of an opening to get the bullet started and a -0.002 neck to provide “pressed” tension. Below is a brief history/ancestry of the expander plugs themselves.
Most expanders that come with your die set are of the type where a “bell” is put in the case mouth so one can get the bullet started without deforming the mouth in the process. Additionally, for lead bullets, you avoid shaving off, or into, the bullet as it’s inserted into the case. The Lee universal expander die takes the idea to the next level by letting one set the amount of “bell” desired for the current case that’s being worked on.
Lyman came up with the “M” die (maybe someone can reveal the lore as to how they got that name) which actually does a better job than a forming a “bell”. It opens up the case at the mouth so that the bullet can be seated more freely, ala the Lee Universal expander die, then sizes the neck channel to 0.002 below the bullet size. This provides a consistent amount of tensionto hold the bullet while not working the brass at the mouth which eventually causes problems (generally cracking) (see Dromia’s illustration in post #6). The “M” die came as a full die with the flaring piece within. Buying the entire die for each size was pricey and took up a lot of shelf space.
Enter Al & Co. and the expander plug based on the design of the M die. They came up with selling just the sizer (the expander plug in NOE nomenclature). One could then use the Lee Universal Expander die body to house them. It was a perfect solution and offered many more sizes for you to choose from based on your particular application.
A similar comparison can be made between the Lee bullet sizer dies and the NOE Bushing Push through Sizing Die system. Lee came up with a die cut to a given diameter that one could push size their bullets through. Same issues as the M die, pricey (once you buy enough of them) and took up shelf space. The NOE Bushing Push through Sizing Die system sells the body into which you can use any size bushing they make. Additionally, NOE provides nose-sizing as an option as well.
Thanks for the help I guess I need a .431 x .427 Expander Plug.
As I have already placed my order for a mould and other bits and pieces I will wait and see if I can seat the bullets with my Hornady expander, as it is expensive to pay for postage to Australia. So I will save this for my next order.
I have not tried casting before, but will start with 44 Mag and 444 Marlin as this caliber has a poor bullet selection. I have used 280 gr Woodleigh bullets but they are expensive.
I have a Marlin in 44 mag and a Pedersoli Boar Buster in 444 Marlin, but have not have had much success with accuracy. I dismantled the Boar Buster and tried to slug the barrel. Interestingly, I found that the slug got stuck near the breach end. I used JB paste but it’s still a bit tight. I may try some lapping if I still get 4 inch groups at 50 meters (with an Aimpoint sight) but I will try a the cast bullets before I start lapping. By the way, it took me 3 hours to work out how to put the Pedersoli back together, which needed to have the trigger spring compressed and pinned on to reassemble.
leonhart
I know this is an older thread, but I wanted to reply to AlvinYorks comment on Lyman M expanders.
I think it got it’s name the same way the H and I sizing parts did.
Early on Ideal or Lyman, Not sure which at the time, drew up a diagram and parts list for their tooling. They used letters to designate the parts on the diagram. Thus the parts now known as the H and I had the letters H and I on the diagram and list.
I assume somewhen there was a diagram and list for the reloading tools and the Expander had an M for the designation, thus it is known as an M expander.
Leocraig
Sorry to bring this thread up again.
Does anyone have a thought if the brass will spring back. For example, if the neck is expanded for tension to .427″, I’ve gone on the thought that the neck would end up a little tighter, possibly .426″?
I suppose I should do a little experimenting for myself, but it seems like I’m calculating and using somewhat less bullet tension than most folks. Is there an ideal bullet tension?
Thanks for any thoughts, Craig
torpedox64
adamsutherland
Ross Smith
SwedeNelson
AlvinYork
leonhart
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