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David Cummings
I was fortunate enough to snag one of the “MOAB” molds for the 458 SOCOM.
The issue now is powder availability.
The only powder I have on hand that might be acceptable is IMR 4227.
I found one bit of load data for a 550gn copper plated bullet suggesting 18grains of 4227 with no additional data
Based this, it seems like 16 grains might be an acceptable starting point with my MOAB bullets, but I was hoping someone could run it in quickload for me so I’m not just taking someone’s word off the internet that I won’t kersplode my new barrel.
David Cummings-
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Mike B.
You might want to be very careful mixing jacketed bullet load intel & potential cast bullet load intel especially when one bullet is a 550 grain, Copper Jacketed … Plated and the HCT assuming that you opted for the non HP variety is a 600 grain bullet. As you did not say whether you opted for the HP version or not…
Please … Do not get me wrong… the particular data from CAM PRO for that particular bullet is most probably safe … from a liability standpoint for that particular bullet in that particular cartridge.
Unfortunately… without knowing the rest of the data including the bullets OAL and where exactly the crimp grove is located one cannot safely tend to back into the data that generated that load data intel with a degree of safety…
One of the very best ways to vary the pressure generated is by varying the seating depth… the other is the actual weight of the cast bullet used… assuming that you are actually utilizing a wheelweight alloy to cast the bullets to actually produce a 600 Gr cast bullet weight.
The HCT459-600 RF is predicted by the NOE design drawing to have a 1.430 cast bullet length … The NOE drawing tends also to show an .858 seating depth… for that particular 600 gr powder coated design… A 50 grain difference in bullet weight between the two is a good bit of a difference…
The 458 SOCOM 550 Gr copper spitzer bullet in the previous reply unfortunately does not give that particular bullets overall length nor the specific length of the body from the base to the crimp grove… as shown on page 2… to be able to load that data into quickload to get a prediction of the pressure generated by that load and to thus back into the data that basically generated that intel… Essentially reverse engineer the data produced…
Without the aforementioned data at least as a starting point any prediction from quickload would at best be compared to apples and oranges… (Possibly exploding oranges… or exploding apples depending on your load generation perspective)
Your Call on that… count.
Unfortunately… Even the Hodgdon Reloading center for your 458 SOCOM with IMR 4227 powder only goes up to 400 grains… so that source of reliable intel from the powder manufacturer is at the moment not a reliable option either… as 200 grains is an even bigger jump than a potential 50 grains… difference…
PM’s unfortunately do not allow for attachments and I do not tend to post quickload data on a public forum any more because the data can unfortunately be interpreted in a number of ways that… which can only lead to misinterpretations if the recipe is not followed rather closely… that can tend to get one into trouble very quickly pressure wise… as can be basically illustrated your reference in your request… for quickload data…
If the individual who posted the CAM PRO data has some of those bullets and a caliper to measure the bullet OAL and where exactly the crimp grove is located that will help too…
If you can come up with the data as noted above post it or PM me and I will setup the quickload program to look at what you are requesting… NOTE one of the quickload options is a projected incremental load table for the specific combination of parameters as noted above… once we decide that we are comparing apples and apples…
Take Care & Stay Safe…
I understand what you’re getting at.
I’m a fairly experienced reloader and caster, and I’m fully aware that experience is in no way a substitute for safe loading practices.
I’ll send an email to them and see if I can track down those numbers.
Thanks for the information so far!
If I hear back from them I’ll send over a PM.You might want to be very careful mixing jacketed bullet load intel & potential cast bullet load intel especially when one bullet is a 550 grain, Copper Jacketed … Plated and the HCT assuming that you opted for the non HP variety is a 600 grain bullet. As you did not say whether you opted for the HP version or not…
Please … Do not get me wrong… the particular data from CAM PRO for that particular bullet is most probably safe … from a liability standpoint for that particular bullet in that particular cartridge.
Unfortunately… without knowing the rest of the data including the bullets OAL and where exactly the crimp grove is located one cannot safely tend to back into the data that generated that load data intel with a degree of safety…
One of the very best ways to vary the pressure generated is by varying the seating depth… the other is the actual weight of the cast bullet used… assuming that you are actually utilizing a wheelweight alloy to cast the bullets to actually produce a 600 Gr cast bullet weight.
The HCT459-600 RF is predicted by the NOE design drawing to have a 1.430 cast bullet length … The NOE drawing tends also to show an .858 seating depth… for that particular 600 gr powder coated design… A 50 grain difference in bullet weight between the two is a good bit of a difference…
The 458 SOCOM 550 Gr copper spitzer bullet in the previous reply unfortunately does not give that particular bullets overall length nor the specific length of the body from the base to the crimp grove… as shown on page 2… to be able to load that data into quickload to get a prediction of the pressure generated by that load and to thus back into the data that basically generated that intel… Essentially reverse engineer the data produced…
Without the aforementioned data at least as a starting point any prediction from quickload would at best be compared to apples and oranges… (Possibly exploding oranges… or exploding apples depending on your load generation perspective)
Your Call on that… count.
Unfortunately… Even the Hodgdon Reloading center for your 458 SOCOM with IMR 4227 powder only goes up to 400 grains… so that source of reliable intel from the powder manufacturer is at the moment not a reliable option either… as 200 grains is an even bigger jump than a potential 50 grains… difference…
PM’s unfortunately do not allow for attachments and I do not tend to post quickload data on a public forum any more because the data can unfortunately be interpreted in a number of ways that… which can only lead to misinterpretations if the recipe is not followed rather closely… that can tend to get one into trouble very quickly pressure wise… as can be basically illustrated your reference in your request… for quickload data…
If the individual who posted the CAM PRO data has some of those bullets and a caliper to measure the bullet OAL and where exactly the crimp grove is located that will help too…
If you can come up with the data as noted above post it or PM me and I will setup the quickload program to look at what you are requesting… NOTE one of the quickload options is a projected incremental load table for the specific combination of parameters as noted above… once we decide that we are comparing apples and apples…
Take Care & Stay Safe…
If you add your barrel length to the intel that you will be providing … the quickload program can predict your muzzle velocity and the percentage of the 4227 powder burnt … or left in the barrel…
As an example … Some very preliminary rough estimates for an ~ 10 inch AR barrel are that only about 72 – 74% of your IMR 4227 powder charge will be utilized in the barrel … Also quickload has set the 458 SOCOM has having a max pressure of 35000 PSI… with the quickload program yellow caution level setup at ~25000 PSI.
While you will most probably be no where near that pressure level with 4227 the variation of the seating depth of as little as ~ .085 … Say a seating depth from .773 to .858 with that cast HP Cast bullet option is approximately 2000 psi… in pressure difference. This will vary your overall cartridge length from ~ 2.145 to ~ 2.230
I am from your previous comments figuring that you have by now also made up a dummy cartridge or two to check your mag feed and the cartridge COAL chambering, & that you may be approaching a COAL number for your 458 SOCOM that it will potentially feed and digest with a minimum number of issues once the powder portion of the recipe is added.
Well, fortuitously I was able to snag some AA1680 and some AA11FS.
1680 should be more appropriate for this task I think.I grabbed the 11FS out of curiosity mostly.
my understanding is that it’s VERY similar to Alliant 300MP but with added flash suppresant. I gather it’s one notch slower burning than H110 and can potentially generate a good boost in velocity with similar pressure if there’s a long enough barrel to work with.
Blue text is speculation, not hard fact.Substituting Accurate 11 FS into the 10 ” bbl rough guesstimate tends to give you potentially only another 4% additional burn percentage over what the original rough calcs predict … for IMR 4227
So you are now circa 76 to 78% of the powder burn utilized.. Even with 11 FS powder you would potentially need at least a 24 inch barrel to potentially get to circa an 85% burn, changing no other estimated parameters… & sans the additional requested data… I tend to doubt that you have a barrel of that length…
AA 1680 is even worse unfortunately… as a 10 inch barrel is only predicted to be in the neighborhood of a bit over a 60% burn. When everything else is left in stasis, & one only changes the powder type… as previously noted…
It would potentially appear that one might need a max load to even get close to an acceptable burn rate … percentage…
Otherwise you may be potentially be beating that poor AR 458 SOCOM to death in short order …
The 458 SOCOM appears to need a much quicker burn rate than what you currently have specified… for a better cleaner burning fit… with that particular bullet weight… in that cartridge case size…
A traditional pistol powder might have more of a better fit potential in this instance… According to the quickload data the 458 SOCOM predicts that the average cartridge case has about 61 to 62 grains volume of water when completely filled … The initial projection using the worst case .858 seating depth predicts that you will only have around 26 grains of water capacity left out of the value noted above once the cast bullet is seated… That’s a very heavy bullet in what amounts to a remaining pistol case capacity.
A faster pistol or shotgun powder might possibly be a potential answer here… However … now we are in that area of speculation … unless one goes to say something like … Trail Boss… which supposedly according to the powder mfg… one can fill the case to 70% of the remaining space not taken up by the bullet and still be safe according to the powder mfg… That particular powder is fast enough with even a 10 ” bbl to potentially predict a 100% burn when substituted into the quickload prediction with just over a 70% fill.
As a very rough comparison example … An average 45 Colt cartridge case is estimated to have around a 42 grains of water capacity… When seated with a 228-230 grain bullet you arrive in approximately the same neighborhood for the sake of speculation … of remaining powder cartridge capacity as is noted above for arguments sake…
It might potentially be a better bet to think of the 458 SOCOM and your heavy weight cast bullet more potentially … as a pistol cartridge vs a traditional rifle cartridge in this instance.
As the rifle powders that you currently have specified all appear to be a bit to slow in burn rates to make a good clean burning fit… except when pushed to the maximum… going hard & fast might not be the answer here with a bullet that heavy, & a short barrel…
Your Call on how you want to proceed…
Do you see any better output figures with any of the following:
Longshot
Power Pistol
AA9
2400
Blue DotIt’s a 12 inch Tromix barrel, 1:14, pistol length gas system.
The chamber gauge from Tromix got lost in the mail, so I’m waiting on a replacement.Gotta say I’m surprised that it wouldn’t burn more of the charge with that much mass corking up the barrel!
Mike B.
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