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bjornborud
I shot 160 rounds loaded with the XCB bullet today, giving my XCB rifle a good workout. What I was doing was in no way a TEST, in fact I won’t be using that word much anymore, since a test implies laying down baselines, using a comparison protocol, a minimum amount of shots, etc. etc.
Rather than getting all complicated I’ll be doing some shooting, explaining and observing over the next few months, and I invite you shooters out there to share your comments and critiques here on the board. No “rights” or “wrongs”, I’ll be trying out a multitude of variables in my quest to make my rifle shoot as well as she is capable of.
When I did my “HV lube test” the other day, Geargnasher commented that I hadn’t shot sufficiently large strings for the bore to get conditioned with the lube. I have to admit that he most likely is right, and today I wanted to give this famous lube a fair shake. At the end of the day a hundred rounds lubed with FWFL had gone down the bore, and here are some of the highlights:
First I shot a few mild loads – 13 grains of Unique. After the first group of 6 I went directly into 3 strings loaded with 28 grains of Varget. The first 2 groups, 15 shots each, were filled with 3/4 gr. Dacron, with the third group (10 shots) I used Puff-Lon as a filler. This is a powdery substance that is compressed (by 20%) between powder and bullet base. I could not detect much difference in accuracy between the two methods.Then I went straight into some High Velocity stuff. The lube held up very well as the target pictures show. I didn’t set up my chronograph; I have ordered this contraption and it’s being delivered Wednesday:
It should make documentation much easier, since I like to gather data from all my shooting.
The numbers in parenthesis next to the HV groups are MVs chronographed with the identical loads earlier, when the rifle’s barrel was 3 1/2″ shorter. It should give a good reference.Here are the targets from several of the strings shot with Felix lube:
At this point I scrubbed the bore thoroughly, and changed over to a lube I hadn’t tried before: White Label 2700+, from Lars’ Lubes. I had loaded several strings from mild to wild, and to say that I was impressed with this lube would be an understatement. In earlier conversations with Larry Gibson it was mentioned that this lube could be too stiff and possibly leave lube in the grooves upon muzzle exit. Because of the XCB bullet’s shallow grooves I decided to give it a go and it appears the lube performs as advertised.
With this lube I also mixed it up and loaded several bullets cast from pure linotype. Those are indicated in the target photos.
All in all I was very pleased with the way both rifle and loads performed. Not pictured are several groups shot with experimental powders, that didn’t work out well. These loads bombed with both lubes, so no fault there. Hodgdon Superformance just doesn’t shoot well at the velocities we were trying to attain, and more experimenting is needed in this area.
bjornborud-
Replies
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swheeler
Tim I don’t know if that is true in all rifles. I’ve been tooting the CRED horn for many years now. I have used it in postal matches at CB when the temp was near zero with no foulers fired (because the temp was so low/cold)BUT the barrels had fired hundreds of rounds lubed with CRED previously and I have not noticed those cold barrel fliers that the xpurts report. Now those rifles are milsurps that shoot 2 moa+- on demand, 80 deg or 0 it don’t matter, 1900 to 1600 fps so they are not being pushed hard at all. I still have thousands of 38-357 rounds lubed with CRED. In fact it solved an high temp(80+ deg outside) leading problem that developed in a 450 Watts AI, leading near muzzle with Lymans super moly. Then last time I bought lube, what did I order, BAC, hum must of had a stroke or something!
timmalcolm
I’m waiting to see what Larry finds on his lube tests, especially interested in CREd. What’s the new “velocity benchmark” going to be when he gets his 16″ twist 30×60? 3100 should be right at the threshold. It’s a new age in cast bullet shooting, thanks to everyone who dare go where few have gone and tell the truth
Life is goodianharris
sgt.mike
Fellers please. Were here to learn and demonstrate. Check the BS at the door.
Thank ya Goodsteel you are so right …. cutting up is great but please let’s be a little careful about the drama that could be aroused unwittingly ( but it was a funny pun scot, not to pick on anyone anywhere). I do prefer the civil nature that we are doing versus what has been done in the past. Just my 2cents worth thank you all.Oh I have to add on here,
Gear what was your powder (figuring Lube was your homemade stuff) that gave the best results again @ High Vel vs looking it up? Thank you in advance.Mike
Fellers please. Were here to learn and demonstrate. Check the BS at the door.
Thank ya Goodsteel you are so right …. cutting up is great but please let’s be a little careful about the drama that could be aroused unwittingly ( but it was a funny pun scot, not to pick on anyone anywhere). I do prefer the civil nature that we are doing versus what has been done in the past. Just my 2cents worth thank you all.Oh I have to add on here,
Gear what was your powder (figuring Lube was your homemade stuff) that gave the best results again @ High Vel vs looking it up? Thank you in advance.Mike
Sometimes people let their sense of professionalism go and drama is very WITTINGLY aroused, and there is no place here for that here on a business product forum, regardless of how true or funny it may be. I noticed Al didn’t put a humor or politics forum here, I take that to mean he is hosting this place for exactly the reasons Goodsteel mentioned, not for our entertainment. I’m not trying to be a stick in the mud, but we all know how these things can go, and I’m pretty sure none of us want that. If they do, they can go ‘beyond’…….sorry I couldn’t resist either! Ok, I’m done, my regrets that this even needed to be brought up here. Back to the question…
I keep going back to H414/WW760 for the mid-size .30-calibers for 22-2600 fps work because for some reason it has given me the best groups, repeatedly, with my reloading methods. I am generally using heavier bullets than most of you are, from 173-190 grains. I’m also using MUCH softer alloys, with much less antimony and tin, because I have a purpose in addition to punching paper and chasing velocity. I’ve tried a variety of powders including I3031, H4350, I4064, I&H4831, WW780 Supreme, Hybrid 100V, and RX22. For the ’06, I’ve had better luck with WW780 at hv. None of my .308s, my .30XCB, nor my ’06 have liked H4350 very much, not sure why, I just can’t get it to group well even with a lot of work. I can get it to group poorly and improve a great deal, but never as well as WW760. Everyone’s rifles will be different, so find what works for you. My next powder to try will be Lever. Family/estate affairs have kept me off the range or a couple of months but it remains the “next thing to try” as it has been for a while, thanks to Larry wading off in the waters with that one in his .308 and generating some original pressure data for our benefit.
Gear
A quick range report, as usual shooting the NOE 310-165-FN, lubed with White Label 2700+. I continued to load using the breech seater from Goodsteel, trying to see how fast the rifle would shoot with sub 2 MOA accuracy, which was the original parameter set for the XCB project. Today I shot 4 groups for velocity, using the following powders: Reloder 22, Reloder 19 and Accurate 4350. One fouling shot was made with H4831SC (just to get a ballpark velocity number). Then I shot one group with Varget, trying to see what kind of accuracy the rifle would deliver with a “standard” CBA match load. All charges and velocities are printed/written on the target photos.
In the second group, using 56 grains RL22, I used bullets cast from straight wheel weights, heat treated to 460 degrees for one hour, then quenched in antifreeze measured to -1 degrees F. Aged 4 weeks, they measured 30 BHN on an LBT tester. They did not shoot well. I can not explain the fliers. The chronograph sheet for this group looks funky because I forgot to start a new string, so they were part of the first shooting string.
Here’s an interesting tidbit: In the 3 decent HV groups, shot with 3 different powder but with the exact same charge weight, the MVs are pretty much exactly the same regardless of burn rate. The primers showed no pressure signs, and the rifle never showed any other signs of pressure (bolt hard to open, excessive recoil etc.). Does it have any significance? I don’t know, but I’ll be happy to hear what you guys think.
The group shot for accuracy (with Varget) is not much to write home about. I’m thinking the breech seater is shining in the higher pressures and velocities, and not so much when shooting slower loads. I’m able to shoot pretty much the same groups or better with fixed ammo.
Larry Gibson
Bjorn
Another excellent report. Have to say holding that accuracy at 2800+ fps with cast bullets is excellent. Your powder capacity BSing the bullets with the 30 XCB (30×57) will be just about the same as with the 30×60 with the bullets case seated normally. It will be interesting to see how the velocities compare with equal loads.
Larry Gibson
petermink
Don’t want to hijack the thread…….. But…..
From the posts here it seems some you are interested in the Magnetospeed V3. I bought mine several months ago. Probably the biggest problem. With it is setting it up on a particular rifle. Nothing complicated and is easily done prior to going to the range. If you want to use it on more than one rifle on your trip it will have to be adjusted for each one.
The best part is you can use it rain or shine, overcast or bright sun. Living in the colder part of the country I’ve only had it out three times. The results compared real closely to results gotten off a PACT.
Pete
The adjustments needed to set up the MagnetoSpeed is very minor work compared to the hassle of setting up a regular chronograph. I’m thrilled with it so far, and shooting a few control rounds (known velocity) has shown the unit to be very accurate, even with cast bullets.
On another note, I’ll be attempting to kick up the speed another notch this week, hopefully Thursday. I believe ball powders are the answer to getting to the next level, and will shoot Winchester 760 and Hodgdon LeveRevolution to that end. I’m still trying to wrap my head around the identical speed attained with 3 different powders yesterday.
Excellent work Bjorn, as usual. Just keep doing what you are doing. Run the spectrum with the BS, observe and record. When Larry gets it, and put’s the Ohler lab on it, we may just have a very clear picture of what is going on.
The identical powder speeds are bugging me too. The reason I built the tool was to eliminate the engraving pressure from the pressure trace, and also eliminate any unconcentric damage to the bullet that the RPM can play havoc with. However, I really think that the back pressure created by the bullet engrave could have a dramatic effect on the way the powder burns.
I’ve already run into this with 44 Magnum loads where case neck tension can make or break a good load because it modifies the powder burn. I think this could be no different.
swheeler
timmalcolm
ianharris
sgt.mike
Larry Gibson
petermink
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