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Ranch Dog
Okay guys, I’m finished with the design work on my three 30 caliber short necked cartridges; the 300 Savage, 308 Win, and 7.62×39.
These cartridge represents a bit of a challenge in cast bullet design, that being the need to contain the body within the case neck and then balancing the center of pressure with the center of gravity while retaining a usable bullet length. My focus has been on using these bullets in modern bolt action rifles. The reason I’ve focused on these actions is because of the demand they place on the bullet fitting all the detailed features of the chamber cut. The details of the chamber cut in these rifles are very consistent and are capable of being verified during manufacture with go/no-go gauges. Fitting the bullet to the chamber features is important if the for the bullet is to survive at the cartridge designed pressure and velocities. If we are not going to push all of these we might as well just shoot a 30-30 Win. Of course, your bullet alloy and it’s treatment is just as important if not more so. I can get the design right, but you have to control the product at the drop.
The first and last have updated features and the 308 Win is a new design. Here they are in line with each for a comparison; the TLC310-165-RF for the 300 Savage, the TLC310-180-RF for the 308 Win, and the TLC313-150-RF for the 7.62×39
My original TLC310-150-RF for the 300 Savage was a 150-grain bullet and I tried to get around the intracacies of the chamber cut of this cartridge with a simple tangent ogive. Like all three of these offerings the chamber is just too complex for a simple design to provide a good fit.
The new design considers the needs of the step, freebore, freebore leade, and leade cut into the SAAMI chamber while at the same time confining the bullet body within the case neck.
I also wanted to see a longer bullet nose to improve feed from the magazine, no matter the design of that magazine. A chamber impression from my Savage 110 was used to verify that this manufacture does cut to the SAAMI specification.
One thing that I started to do as a standard when designing a bullet is defining the case length with any design in that the case neck is so important. To accomplish this I use the Lee Case Length Gauge/Trimmer minus .005″ to establish this length. These trimmers are easy to check using your calipers by measuring from the base that meets the cutter to the pin. These trimmers should measure at the SAAMI trim length when checked. When a case is trimmed, deburred, and chamfered it should be at the maximum SAAMI trim length minus .005″. Any shorter and the timer should be discarded and a new trimmer purchased. Keep this standard in mind if you use a adjustable trimmer.
Another item that I have incorporated into my design work since establishing a case length, is to design a bullet that provides a set cartridge overall length. These lengths are defined to the .005″.
This is an orignal design based on what the 300 Sav and 7.62X39 have taught me about critical dimension chambers but I have little doubt that it will not but prove to be great critter getter!
The exact same features that were present in the 300 Savage are present in the 308 Win. Like the TLC310-165-RF, top band is used to fit the step, and freebore, and freebore leade, and then a tapered bore rider is used to address the leade.
A chamber impression of my Mossberg 800A verified the SAAMI dimensions used to in the cartridge design.
The base of the bullet matches the base of the case neck using the same brass standard that was mentioned as well as establishing a cartridge overall length.
This final design is what brought me to the short necks and has taught me the most about bullet design. There is no doubt that the 7.62×39 has become my favorite cartridge. As a fellow that tromps the brush of my South Texas ranch, I know that this cartridge is capable of meeting the needs of a life time of feral hog and whitetail hunting. I have more rifles in this cartridge now than I do in any other cartridge that I shoot and as a lever nut, that is saying a lot.
Like the 300 Savage, this isn’t my first rodeo and the same lessons learned about a simple tangent ogive apply. These ogives may work for leverguns but they don’t allow a modern bolt gun be all it is capable of being.
Top band and a very short tapered bore rider (.015″) is used to match the critical components of the chamber.
The chamber has been verified against my Savage 10 FCM, Ruger Mini-30, and Zastava M85 (my favorite light rifle). I have sidelined the 10 FCM until I have a chance to fire lap the barrel. In this Savage the freebore leade tapers to a .308″ groove and .300″ bore. I’m going to try to lap it out to .310″/.302″ or get rid of it.
The magazine feed from my bolt guns is slick as a whistle and once I dressed the forward edge of my Mini-30 magazine, the same can be said.
The 7.62×39 is a great compact cartridge especially when used in a bolt gun like the Zastava M85 Mini-Mauser. If you have ever wanted a Savage 340 or Remington 788 chambered in 30-30 Win for cast bullet hunting, you would love this combination!
This has been the longest cast bullet project I’ve attempted, several hundred hours of sweating the small details, but I believe it will pay off in the performance you see out the barrel. I have much more information available to include loading data but it has been a long day.
Swede has my shop drawings and will be doing his work to give you the options you like to see in any of my designs. We should have the group buys up tomorrow. Let’s get this going, I have a bunch of rifles that need bullets!
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Mike Bambauer
Finally was able to get caught up on ranch chores and cast late yesterday evening. Having all three of the short necks, I started with the 310-165 300 Sav bullet. In light of how busy I’ve been, all my benches are a mess so I dropped the tailgate on my truck and got busy. I do this often as I have electric outlets and really like casting in the shade of a tree out in the open. Last spring I while casting I had a Rio Grande turkey hen walk up to me and watch me cast for several minutes from about 5′ away!
I cast with previous cast material; bullet rejects, sprue cuttings, etc. The alloy had started life as what I usually cast with, 95% wheel weights and 5% tin plus 1 ounce of #8 shot per 10% of the ww/sn. I water quench the bullets at the drop and will see 19 to 21 BHN. Over the last 15 years, I’ve killed a heck of a lot of big game animals with this mix.
I normally run my Lee Pro-40 at 740° but out in the wind the pour spout kept going solid on me so I bumped the temperature to 780° and that cured that issue. All my casting has been done with the Lee 6 cavity molds I thought that the larger blocks of the NOE would need a bit more preheat time which they did. Once heated, I did not experience any over heating like I do with the Lee blocks. I cast about 250 bullets, reached down in the quench bucket and grabbed one, put a gas check, and weighed it. I don’t know if I’ve ever had a bullet hit the target weight exactly!
All the features of this bullet were well defined and loaded as a dummy round, it slid right into the chamber of my Savage 110. The plan is to lube with the Ben’s Liquid Lube formula and then load them up to 42.0k PSI right off the bat. I will start with Varget and if I’m not happy with that, H4895.
There were few rejects that I saw and those seemed to be like the middle bullet above. I think that was simple a poor fill due to the wind that was blowing.
My plans are to cast the 310-180 this morning and then the 313-150 this afternoon if nothing else comes up.
georgeafenleyiii
Hi, Yes I’d be interested in a mould for
TLC310-180-RF ~ 308 Win …. can this bullet be made with grease grooves? I’ve gotten one in TLC by mistake. I’ve tumble lubed a number for a Corbin Swager years ago in .45 ACP. Really neat! The only misgiving I might have is do I need to coat the whole bullet or is there an easier way just to coat the grooves. Thanks GeorgeHi, Yes I’d be interested in a mould for
TLC310-180-RF ~ 308 Win …. can this bullet be made with grease grooves? I’ve gotten one in TLC by mistake. I’ve tumble lubed a number for a Corbin Swager years ago in .45 ACP. Really neat! The only misgiving I might have is do I need to coat the whole bullet or is there an easier way just to coat the grooves. Thanks GeorgeSwede would need to answer the question concerning your purchase but you can run the bullets through a traditional lube sizer, I have a Lyman 4500, but I prefer to dip them in Alox. I shoot 26 rifle and 7 handgun bullets of my design, all with the Lee Micro-Bands, and I will not shoot anything else. All of my loads are at jacketed bullet velocities and these bullets have taken a hundreds of big game animals in the last decade.
Just finished casting the 310-180 and 313-150 after starting with the 310-165 yesterday and all I can say is thank you Swede for the quality work! All have been checked against my SAAMI spec chambers and they are a perfect fit. I have close to a thousand bullets piled up so now the work starts!
Going to get them out the barrels as soon as possible. I’ve been letting the hogs have a free pass here on the rancho in anticipation of these bullets. I will put the 300 Sav and 7.62×39 into play and my buddy Joe, who is brand new to reloading and casting, will have the honors with the 308 Win. I will follow up with my 308 Win as soon as he claims first kill!
steveleonard
Hi, Yes I’d be interested in a mould for
TLC310-180-RF ~ 308 Win …. can this bullet be made with grease grooves? I’ve gotten one in TLC by mistake. I’ve tumble lubed a number for a Corbin Swager years ago in .45 ACP. Really neat! The only misgiving I might have is do I need to coat the whole bullet or is there an easier way just to coat the grooves. Thanks GeorgeJust a note that I have an ongoing poll in the “Wish List” column about this exact lube groove thing. You can vote on it.
I cast with previous cast material; bullet rejects, sprue cuttings, etc. The alloy had started life as what I usually cast with, 95% wheel weights and 5% tin plus 1 ounce of #8 shot per 10% of the ww/sn. I water quench the bullets at the drop and will see 19 to 21 BHN. Over the last 15 years, I’ve killed a heck of a lot of big game animals with this mix.
Should that read >> 1 ounce of #8 shot per 10 pounds of ww/sn.
???
If not then I am confused..I cast with previous cast material; bullet rejects, sprue cuttings, etc. The alloy had started life as what I usually cast with, 95% wheel weights and 5% tin plus 1 ounce of #8 shot per 10% of the ww/sn. I water quench the bullets at the drop and will see 19 to 21 BHN. Over the last 15 years, I’ve killed a heck of a lot of big game animals with this mix.
Should that read >> 1 ounce of #8 shot per 10 pounds of ww/sn.
???
If not then I am confused..It should read as you corrected. To be specific, one ounce by volume added to 10# of 95/5.
thomaswarren
Which manufacturers build the correct dimension dies for the 7.62×39?
I use Lee. I have both the Pacesetters and Deluxe sets. Once the Mini Mauser shoots a case, I use the collet die in the Deluxe set for sizing.
Along these lines, my Ruger Mini-30 went back to Ruger yesterday. I spoke with them about the short chamber and they are going to look at it. If it comes back with the short chamber at Ruger’s spec, I will get rid of the rifle.
I had planned to try lapping the bore & groove of my Savage 10FCM Scout out to the 7.62×39 spec, they use .300/.308, but I think I’m going to send the rifle back to their custom shop to be rebarreled into a different chambering. Right now, I’m thinking 300 Savage as I want a Savage bolt gun in that cartridge and my 110WLE is driving me nuts.
Now that I’ve done the research on it, I know why the long action & chamber was making me crazy. Savage offered the 110WLE in 250 Sav and 7×57 as well in this 110 series, all with longer throats so that heavier/longer bullets could be used beyond the confines of the specs for the cartridges. That makes it a cast bullet shooter’s nightmare. While making chamber impressions it would just make be crazy but I removed the barrel so I could look at it real good and the chamber has .055″ worth of extra freebore. That is a crazy amount for this cartridge. I end up with the case mouth on the single body band!
So far it is not shooting well and my thought is that is because the durn bullet has to be seated so far out of the case and there is probably not enough neck support/tension. The start pressures are probably next to nothing. So back to the 10FCM…
Back when I decided to buy this rifle I talked to the Savage Custom Shop and they had told me $288. I wish I would have done it then as I really like this rifle but I do not like the .308″ groove on the 7.62×39 that they use. I talked with the CS again on Tuesday and they said to send it in when I’m ready. The new barrel, setup (bolt head, fit, etc.), and one magazine would be something less than $300. So this rifle will probably go in and the 110WLE be sold.
My Mossberg 800A (308 Win) and Mini Mauser (7.62×39) has been quietly waiting on the sidelines for me to get to them while I fiddled with my two problem children. I just needed bullets in hand to decide what to do with the Mini-30’s short chamber and the 110WLE’s long chamber.
Well… I continue to shift around concerning what I want to do with my Savage 10FCM 7.62×39 but it has most definitely received a reprieve from being converted to a 300 Savage. I spent several days staring at both it and my 110WLE, two rifles not cut to the SAAMI spec for their respective cartridges (on purpose). The 10FCM uses a .300 bore/.308 groove which gives this 7.62×39 chamber a longer freebore leade to move down to the .002″ smaller groove. It has been very difficult to find or design a cast bullet for this unusual 7.62×39. On the jacketed bullet side, I’ve never shot a rifle that has the accuracy potential this rifle does. It shoots everything well. I do worry about the long run issues of throat erosion that .310 ~.311 bullets, especially steel core bullets. Ammunition like the Federal Fusion, is sub-sub MOA but I worry the long term effect of jamming that .311 bullet down a .308 groove. Plus, this fellow doesn’t buy much ammunition no matter how well it shoots but especially ammunition that costs $1.25 to $1.50/round!
Here is how the 10FCM compares to the SAAMI spec for the 7.62×39. Greater diameter freebore that leades to a smaller diameter groove.
As I pondered this Savage’s fit I started to think about how my 300 Sav chambered 110 needs the 308 Win’s TLC310-180-RF to fill it’s chamber. Next think I now I’m staring at that 300 Sav bullet, the TLC310-165-RF (I know this is confusing), thinking it my fit this special need 7.62×39.
When I did the math on a SAAMI length case plus the bullet nose length, I came up with an overall cartridge length of 2.175″. Next, I sent a cleaning rod down the barrel until it rested on the bolt face and marked the rod at the muzzle. Then, I dropped the TLC310-165-RF down the throat, sent the cleaning rod back down and marked it again. Low and behold, the marks measure a perfect 2.175″. So my 300 Sav bullet is a perfect consideration for this odd barrelled 7.62×39.
Sighting in the rifle went extremely quick, I just went straight to a max load. The 25 yard, target was perfect. I fired one shot at the 50 yard target and raised the windage four clicks and moved the target out to 100 yards and shot three more. The bullets were tumble lubed with three coats of the Ben’s TL recipe.
With the heavy thunderstorms that continue this was the best I could get done but my satisfaction with the performance of this rifle/cartridge/bullet combination will keep this Savage on the ranch.
In the meantime; both my Savage 110 (300 Sav) and Mossberg 800A (308 Win) have been given their walking papers. I bought a cherry Remington 722 chambered in 300 Savage for my work with the TLC310-165-RF in it’s parent cartridge and will select a new 308 Win in the next day or two.
When this weather let’s up, the Mini Mauser will get the treatment with the updated TLC310-150-RF. It’s next on the list but it shot the original bullet so well that I expect nothing but better performance.
Now, read about the first kill for the TLC310-165-RF: http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,793.0.html#new
joesimpson
Along these lines, my Ruger Mini-30 went back to Ruger yesterday. I spoke with them about the short chamber and they are going to look at it. If it comes back with the short chamber at Ruger’s spec, I will get rid of the rifle.
I was curious what the result was on the Mini-30. I’ve been thinking about getting one as a toy but it would be nice to know that your’s isn’t the norm.
Thanks,
Joe
Along these lines, my Ruger Mini-30 went back to Ruger yesterday. I spoke with them about the short chamber and they are going to look at it. If it comes back with the short chamber at Ruger’s spec, I will get rid of the rifle.
I was curious what the result was on the Mini-30. I’ve been thinking about getting one as a toy but it would be nice to know that your’s isn’t the norm.
Thanks,
Joe
Apparently it isn’t as I ended up sending the rifle back to Ruger. I just received it back on Saturday with a new barrel, bolt, & recoil spring. I was right in the middle of planting some fields when FedEx showed up so all I’ve had time to do is cycle dummy rounds through it. It works, it would not chambered them before.
The planting was in anticipation of a week of rain which we are getting now, heavy, and it is supposed to hang in here through the weekend. This will give me some time to get the Ruger and loads ready.
On another note my 308 Win replacement arrived. In that I like the Savage 10 FCM so well, I thought I would buy the first reasonably priced Scout I found. I bought a second generation 10 FCM for $450 so I don’t think the price could be beat. This version has the center feed of the third but not the oversized bolt handle which I ordered from Savage. Should have it up and running for clear weather with the TLC310-180-RF as well.
On another note my 308 Win replacement arrived. In that I like the Savage 10 FCM so well, I thought I would buy the first reasonably priced Scout I found. I bought a second generation 10 FCM for $450 so I don’t think the price could be beat. This version has the center feed of the third but not the oversized bolt handle which I ordered from Savage. Should have it up and running for clear weather with the TLC310-180-RF as well.
Getting the Savage 10 FCM Scout setup. The TLC310-180-RF’s design OAL is perfect at 2.675″! The Savage’s center feed is as slick as it gets so there is no issue with chambering the Round-Flat nose.
Did some prep work on the rifle this morning; replaced the Williams peep aperture with the William’s Ghost Ring. I went ahead and pulled the scout mount off to check for rust under it plus the aft most screw head was damaged. Got that screw out and replace, barrel and receiver was clean under the mount. In the mail run today, I received the Weaver Grand Slam Lever Lok rings and three spare magazines. Now, time to mount the Weaver K4 Classic Scout.
These three 30 caliber short neck designs will give me a summer worth of work plus I ended up with a couple of new rifles. Here is what I need to do:
- [*]TLC310-165-RF
- [*]Rem 722 ~ 300 Savage[*]Sav 10FCM ~ 7.62×39[/list][*]TLC310-180-RF
- [*]Sav 10FCM ~ 308 Win[/list][*]TLC313-150-RF
- [*]Ruger Mini-30 ~ 7.62X39[*]Zastava Mini-Mauser ~ 7.62X39[/list][/list]
Plus I should add another 30 plus caliber that I have not devoted any time to:- [*]TLC359-190-RF
- [*]Rem 600 ~ 35 Rem[/list][/list][/list][/list]
Mike Bambauer
georgeafenleyiii
steveleonard
georgehajduk
let us know how they shoot. 
michaelkinslow
thomaswarren
joesimpson
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